BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[The Stationmaster]

On 23/03/2019 at 11:38, Edwardian said:

Brilliant.

 

I laughed as I scrolled down the poster on screen.

 

Then I got to hashtag tedious and really lost it.

 

Hilarious!

It was even better seeing it for real in the exhibition hall and I think it's presence was doing Rails a bit of good hall.  And of course the banners made their stand that much easier to find for those who wished to find it whereas Hornby was on the opposite side of the hall against a wall (presumably for safety's sake although Hattons stand was next to it and far more noticeable as it was, as usual, quite bit taller. 

[John M Upton]

Indeed despite it being bright red, Hornby's stand was in fact quite easy to miss, especially when the hall is crowded.  It needs more height I think.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, 33212 said:

I visited Ally Pally yesterday....I found it was a bit "flat" over previous years, maybe for me its just become too familiar....there was nothing to buy on the Bachmann stand - always used to be a good "scrum" there...Several of the large retailers were there, Kernow, Rails, Hereford and Cheltenham etc- but I found they were all selling the same stuff. All had a raft of the recent releases by Bachmann, all had piles of Hornby 66's at around the £67.50 mark - all were discounting Bachmanns mk 1's and 2's...I was looking for a 47576 Kings Lynn in NSE - all had these and prices ranged from £99-£125..so take your pick of where to get it (I did not get one in the end) - and all were selling each others items - Hattons warwells and RHTT stuff was everywhere. Lots of independent sellers - I think they were great and made the show - its the access to all of the little odds and ends...

 

One thing I did notice, and heard others comment on, was just the sheer cost of things nowadays - one chap was interested in the Bachmann blue pullman set but it was £600! - it just a loco and five coaches in reality. 

 

I baulked at the cost of spending £25 on a four wheel open wagon (Bachmann MCV), the same was less than a tenner just a couple of years ago. I wanted about ten to make up another rake - ok for £100 but not £250! And I am comfortably well off to be able to splash out when needed - but there is a fine line between value and rip-off. Money stayed in my pocket and I'll get them one by one on eBay when I see them.

 

MG

 

 

Were other people selling Kernow's D6XX?  I'm pretty sure Rails didn't have any from a quick look at their stand but to be honest I ignored the Cheltenham and Hereford stands as they would inevitably have had nothing to interest me.

[Philou]

@33212

 

Regarding the Blue Pullman, unless this version has changed since the first release, surely it's two locos and four coaches for £600? Ok it's still £600 .............. but for the money, you have two locos plus four coaches that are fully detailed within plus lighting of not only the coaches but also all the table-lamps. A very good model if I may say so.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

PS: In trying to keep OT, it knocks spots off Hornby's ancient offering.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Philou

[33212]

Don't know about the D6xx etc but there was lots of crossover - so behind the scenes in the retail world, there must be conversations between suppliers about pricing and selling of each others wares.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2019 by 33212
to remove a potentially libellous comment.

[Mallard60022]

I remember when I went weak and felt faint when I first became aware of the cost of Continental Loco's from Fleischmann et al. way back in the early 90s when I worked PT very briefly for The Engine Shed at Ford. Maybe we are just catching up to a realistic price for very good quality items?

Phil

[AY Mod]

10 minutes ago, 33212 said:

Don't know about the D6xx etc but there was lots of crossover - so behind the scenes in the retail world, there its collusion going on, no doubt about pricing etc...unless there is a broker sorting it all out, and therefore taking a cut? Either way we are paying much much more for models than we used to, some are worth it, some are not..

 

 

Your previous post had nothing to do with the topic subject matter and trod old ground then this post makes silly accusations bordering on libel. No more please.

[33212]

ok - have changed it so it is not potentially libellous. 

 

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

I remember when I went weak and felt faint when I first became aware of the cost of Continental Loco's from Fleischmann et al. way back in the early 90s when I worked PT very briefly for The Engine Shed at Ford. Maybe we are just catching up to a realistic price for very good quality items?

Phil

Fleischmann always were expensive but  had a reputation for quality. In Germany they occupied a more upmarket position than Maerklin and in the UK they had their own Fleischmann modellers club and at least one shop- in Cookham- specialised in their products.  According to John Hills, who was Fleischmann's UK agent until 2012 and knew his market very well, its British buyers were more interested in its quality and reliability than in German railways per se. though I'm sure many others bought Fleischmann alongside other manufacturers. 

The current owners have made Roco their sole H0 brand- so incorporating Fleischmann's H0 range- and Fleischmann their N gauge brand but if you look at the respective websites the design is identical even if the content is different.  I don't have any Fleischmann locos but do have a few from Roco (they produced some French prototypes) and they've been my best runners, particularly for slow speed shunting. 

[melmerby]

36 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

Fleischmann always were expensive but  had a reputation for quality. In Germany they occupied a more upmarket position than Maerklin and in the UK they had their own Fleischmann modellers club and at least one shop- in Cookham- specialised in their products.  According to John Hills, who was Fleischmann's UK agent until 2012 and knew his market very well, its British buyers were more interested in its quality and reliability than in German railways per se. though I'm sure many others bought Fleischmann alongside other manufacturers.  

The current owners have made Roco their sole H0 brand- so incorporating Fleischmann's H0 range- and Fleischmann their N gauge brand but if you look at the respective websites the design is identical even if the content is different.  I don't have any Fleischmann locos but do have a few from Roco (they produced some French prototypes) and they've been my best runners, particularly for slow speed shunting. 

I have just looked at the websites and Fleischmann have both H0 & N; Roco H0, H0e & TT

However there is a clear bias towards N on the Fleischmann & H0 on the Roco site.

Incidentally both are selling a H0 Turntable and they are different.

Edited March 24, 2019 by melmerby

[Dunsignalling]

11 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

They seem to be selling well, so there are clearly plenty of people for whom a Lima model with a more modern motor and a better paint job is good enough at the price. But top notch? Really?  

 

John

 

9 hours ago, melmerby said:

That must be the most ridiculous put down ever.

 

The amount of vitriol towards Hornby re the Terrier is just depressing.

They updated a model to a much higher standard, marketed it at a small increase in price over the previous so-so version and they get slated from pillar to post.

Yes they have got a few things wrong, maybe a higher level of research and another £40 on the price?

Then everyone would be claiming it's too expensive.

 

They can't win.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Keith

 

We're clearly at cross purposes, my comments referred exclusively to the Class 66, and are baldly factual, but for omitting to mention the NEM couplers and DCC socket.

 

I suspect though, that the few things that are wrong with Hornby's Terrier would probably have been sorted out, and for a lot less than an extra £40, if only they'd not been in a tearing hurry to get it into the shops ahead of the competition. Just another demonstration of the truism that nobody gains from duplication.

  

The new Hornby Terrier is a big improvement over their old (ex-Dapol) one, in almost every respect, but I'm keeping my wallet shut until I've seen both theirs and the Dapol/Rails ones in the flesh. I rather fancy the two KESR models, (i.e. one from each) so I'm more concerned with how they look together than one being "better" than the other.

 

Regards

 

John

 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Captain Kernow]

31 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I rather fancy the two KESR models, (i.e. one from each)

 

So I'm not the only one, then.

 

[Pacific231G]

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

I have just looked at the websites and Fleischmann have both H0 & N; Roco H0, H0e & TT

However there is a clear bias towards N on the Fleischmann & H0 on the Roco site.

Incidentally both are selling a H0 Turntable and they are different.

They've not completed the brand switch but if you look at the H0 products from Fleischmann it only includes 26 rolling stock offers (some are multiple wagons or coaches and one beginner's train set)  but mostly accessories like chips, couplers  and traction tyres that you wouldn't want to deny your existing customers. Some items, mainly DB and OBB signals, are common with the same product numbers . By contrast, in N gauge I counted 163 rolling stock  offers in the Fleischmann range.

Meanwhile Roco has 206 rolling stock offers in H0 with a more international range (though still heavily biased towards DB) than I think Fleischmann ever had.

 

Though Roco Line and Fleischmann Profi (with built in ballast) look similar the geometries are rather different and the two brands' sectional track ranges may well be incompatible so both will need to continue for a while. When amalgamating two ranges like this you obviously don't want to leave  existing customers in the lurch so some of the H0 Fleischmann range may need to be maintained for some time. (Does anyone remember how well or badly that was done when Hornby was effecitvely absorbed by Tri-ang?)

 

The company announced in October that they were dropping TT from the Roco range so all that's on offer now are a handful of wagons and the electric turntable. Tillig and Piko are still producing TT and, with its long history in what was Eastern Europe, that probably makes sense given those companies' origins.

 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Pacific231G

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Keith

 

We're clearly at cross purposes, my comments referred exclusively to the Class 66, and are baldly factual, but for omitting to mention the NEM couplers and DCC socket.

 

I suspect though, that the few things that are wrong with Hornby's Terrier would probably have been sorted out, and for a lot less than an extra £40, if only they'd not been in a tearing hurry to get it into the shops ahead of the competition. Just another demonstration of the truism that nobody gains from duplication.

  

The new Hornby Terrier is a big improvement over their old (ex-Dapol) one, in almost every respect, but I'm keeping my wallet shut until I've seen both theirs and the Dapol/Rails ones in the flesh. I rather fancy the two KESR models, (i.e. one from each) so I'm more concerned with how they look together than one being "better" than the other.

 

Regards

 

John

 

Hi John

Yes. I was reading through the unread posts and must have missed something somewhere as I noted earlier.

(My top notch comment was a bit tongue in cheek hence an emoji plus a line of full stops at the end.)

The 66 does seem to be good value but definitely past it's best as regards detail.

 

We did hear in the programme that SK had a limited budget to upgrade the Terrier and that must have impacted on the end result.

Any extra tinkering would have added costs and lost the first past the post aim.

(I'm not in the market for a Terrier even though they are what could be called a "cute" little engine.)

 

A problem I find with Hornby and it has been mentioned in the past by myself and others is that they don't seem to know at what price point many of their offerings are aimed at.

There is often no clear distinction between "Main range" and "Railroad"

The Terrier is too expensive for Railroad but isn't quite top of the pile, unlike e.g. the Lord Nelson which seems to have hit the nail on the head.

 

Sorry about the earlier confusion.

 

 

[Mallard60022]

Hornby clearly need a few more 'casual Consultants'* of the type that have already enabled them to make some SMART decisions about products. Presumably so do Bachman, Dapol, Heljan & Uncle Tom Cobblers et al.  Businesses they most certainly are and competitors they surely will always will be, however this is models we are talking about and the whole Circus could be so much more friendly and cooperative without crossing any ' legal' lines of operational behaviour.

The banner situation could actually become a bit of a fun thing if they got their act together.

One thing is for sure, there is little room for complacency or 'fake news/delays'. Their 'main market' is falling off the purchasing perch at an increasing rate and contingency such as the Virtual idea needs pursuing.

Now, where's that key for my Hornby Tinplate 0.4.0?

Ar$£

 

* name/contact and address available via PM.

[Fireline]

14 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

So I'm not the only one, then.

 

 

I've already ordered the two KESR models! The running of each will make for an interesting comparison.

[Edwardian]

10 hours ago, melmerby said:

 

A problem I find with Hornby and it has been mentioned in the past by myself and others is that they don't seem to know at what price point many of their offerings are aimed at.

There is often no clear distinction between "Main range" and "Railroad"

The Terrier is too expensive for Railroad but isn't quite top of the pile, unlike e.g. the Lord Nelson which seems to have hit the nail on the head.

 

 

 

I agree, and this is a source of confusion for me.  The new Terrier can, I think, be defended and justified based upon its price.  But, Hornby don't have an official mid-range line.

 

We have two Terriers, both 2019 releases, both re-tooled, both 'main catalogue' .

 

Ostensibly we, as consumers, are being asked to choose between two cheeses, yet the reality is that one of them is clearly chalk.

 

It's sensibly priced for chalk, but this is a cheese market! 

[Fireline]

3 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

I agree, and this is a source of confusion for me.  The new Terrier can, I think, be defended and justified based upon its price.  But, Hornby don't have an official mid-range line.

 

We have two Terriers, both 2019 releases, both re-tooled, both 'main catalogue' .

 

Ostensibly we, as consumers, are being asked to choose between two cheeses, yet the reality is that one of them is clearly chalk.

 

It's sensibly priced for chalk, but this is a cheese market! 

 

Not necessarily. Having already received my "chalk", I can tell you that it is easily cheesy enough for me. 

[The Stationmaster]

54 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

I agree, and this is a source of confusion for me.  The new Terrier can, I think, be defended and justified based upon its price.  But, Hornby don't have an official mid-range line.

 

We have two Terriers, both 2019 releases, both re-tooled, both 'main catalogue' .

 

Ostensibly we, as consumers, are being asked to choose between two cheeses, yet the reality is that one of them is clearly chalk.

 

It's sensibly priced for chalk, but this is a cheese market! 

Hornby's definition and marketing of its model railway ranges is clearly something of a mess and that has long been the case with little apparent effort to sort the confusion and overlap.  What also happens - as with the Crosti 9F and perhaps now in some respects with their new Terrier - is the business of building down to a price point which adds further confusion.    The Crosti 9F was kept simple (designed cleverly?) because of concerns about potential market size and, presumablty, price resistance/level of acceptance within the market.  The Terrier in contrast is more obviously priced to compete with the Dapol/Rails version.

 

Nothing at all wrong with 'market pricing' and no reason at all why Hornby should not use it but it also adds another element into what is in many respects the confusing situation in respect of Railroad which seems to cover a wide range of price points that don't necessarily reflect the level of fidelity incorporated, or not incorporated, into any particular model.  But we've been here before and even if part of the market seems confused by and unhappy with the situation Hornby's marketeers aren't.

[stewartingram]

Well, from a conversation I overheard for quite a few minutes at Ally Pally, the proprietor of Rails (is it John?) regards the whole issue of the Rails/Dapol Terrier "conflict" in good taste. He had nothing but admiration for SK, and said they were both in the same business. So as I thought some time ago, it was just media hype to present a storyline in the show.

[Joseph_Pestell]

6 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

Well, from a conversation I overheard for quite a few minutes at Ally Pally, the proprietor of Rails (is it John?) regards the whole issue of the Rails/Dapol Terrier "conflict" in good taste. He had nothing but admiration for SK, and said they were both in the same business. So as I thought some time ago, it was just media hype to present a storyline in the show.

 

I don't think that it was just a storyline for the show. Just the sort of incident that happens under the stress of getting set up for a show.

[D9020 Nimbus]

19 hours ago, melmerby said:

I have just looked at the websites and Fleischmann have both H0 & N; Roco H0, H0e & TT

However there is a clear bias towards N on the Fleischmann & H0 on the Roco site.

Incidentally both are selling a H0 Turntable and they are different.

 

The Fleischmann Profi-Track range—including the turntable—is to continue under their own name; the Roco N gauge track is still offered as part of the Fleischmann N range alongside their "own" track. Roco TT has been discontinued (what's left is old stock—no more is being made); several former Fleischmann locos are being made available as part of the Roco range.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

14 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

...you obviously don't want to leave  existing customers in the lurch ... (Does anyone remember how well or badly that was done when Hornby was effecitvely absorbed by Tri-ang?)

Along masterful Lines. Most of the locos and wagons and the Pullman coaches were initially offered as Triang/Wrenn with a reliable toy coupler attached, in two rail format only. Retailers were left to get on with it using existing stocks of Binns Road's products for those of their customers wanting their H-D system pure and unpolluted. I gathered from the one retailer that I long ago spoke to that this wasn't that difficult, the problem wasn't availability, but avoiding becoming over stocked with stuff that nobody wanted any longer.

[Pacific231G]

On 25/03/2019 at 13:56, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

"...you obviously don't want to leave  existing customers in the lurch ... (Does anyone remember how well or badly that was done when Hornby was effecitvely absorbed by Tri-ang?)"

 

Along masterful Lines. Most of the locos and wagons and the Pullman coaches were initially offered as Triang/Wrenn with a reliable toy coupler attached, in two rail format only. Retailers were left to get on with it using existing stocks of Binns Road's products for those of their customers wanting their H-D system pure and unpolluted. I gathered from the one retailer that I long ago spoke to that this wasn't that difficult, the problem wasn't availability, but avoiding becoming over stocked with stuff that nobody wanted any longer.

Thanks for this.

 

Apart from the coupler question- presumably Meccano Ltd. had still been paying Peco to use Pritchard's patented coupler- were they still doing much with three rail HD anyway by then? Three rail stock with uninsulated wheelsets would have been incompatible with two rail but  the reverse wouldn't have applied (unless wheel standards were also different) so surely Meccano would have been producing everything except locos with insulated wheelsets anyway. 

Such issues presumably wouldn't apply between Fleischmann and Roco's ranges as either stock should work equally well with the other track system and both are fitted with NEM pockets. So, if you have a proprietary Fleischmann layout, not being able to buy Fleischmann branded rolling stock for it shouldn't be a problem but not being able to get any more compatible sectional track for it would.   Of course anyone using Fleischmann AC locos on their Maerklin layout won't be so lucky, they'll be stuck with whatever Maerklin are offering,  and I wonder if the Fleischmann H0 rack system will become a Roco product.

 

From the online catalogues it looks as though Modeleisenbahn, the owner of both Roco and Fleischmann, plan to continue providing the things that existing HO Fleischmann customers will go on needing such as sectional track, traction tyres, replacement couplers and so forth.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Pacific231G

[The Stationmaster]

5 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

Thanks for this.

Apart from the coupler question- presumably Meccano Ltd. had still been paying Peco to use Pritchard's patented coupler- were they still doing much with three rail HD anyway by then? Three rail stock with uninsulated wheelsets would have been incompatible with two rail but  the reverse wouldn't have applied (unless wheel standards were also different) so surely Meccano would have been producing everything except locos with insulated wheelsets anyway. 

Such issues presumably wouldn't apply between Fleischmann and Roco's ranges as either stock should work equally well with the other track system and both are fitted with NEM pockets. So, if you have a proprietary Fleischmann layout, not being able to buy Fleischmann branded rolling stock for it shouldn't be a problem but not being able to get any more compatible sectional track for it would.   Of course anyone using Fleischmann AC locos on their Maerklin layout won't be so lucky, they'll be stuck with whatever Maerklin are offering,  and I wonder if the Fleischmann H0 rack system will become a Roco product.

 

From the online catalogues it looks as though Modeleisenbahn, the owner of both Roco and Fleischmann, plan to continue providing the things that existing HO Fleischmann customers will go on needing such as sectional track, traction tyres, replacement couplers and so forth.

I might not be right (and need to delve out a box to accurately check) but I'm fairly sure all the Hornby Duble SD series vehicles came with plastic (?nylon) wheels from time of their introduction.  The SD coaches definitely did as they needed nothing done to run on 2-rail track and I can't remember having to re-wheel any SD wagons when I converted to 2-rail.  In any case HD wagons, including really old tinplate ones, could very simply be converted to 2-Rail by doing a bit of disassembly to get at the underframe and then loosen the clips holding the wheelsets and put in new wheelsets.