BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[jjb1970]

I think it is often either overlooked or unknown just what a torrid time many of the great European rail brands have gone through over the last 20 years or so. Roco have been through the mill, as have Fleischmann and Marklin. Hornby picked up their international stable following the original Rivarossi/Lima company going tango uniform. The European market has seen the same trend of disruptive new entrants eating away at the established players, often either offering higher levels of detail and prototypical accuracy, or lower priced alternatives (or in the case of some Piko models, both). Piko have really hit the German market hard with some superb models that undercut the established players. And the big players have struggled to respond, at one time I thought Roco were the gold standard of European HO, I haven’t bought many of their models for years and have found myself buying models from ACME, LS, LE, Piko, Lima Expert far more because those companies seem to be hitting the spot and producing some stunning models which have made many of the Roco alternatives look lacklustre. I like Italian HO and the Italian outline offerings of Roco were left behind years ago by companies like ACME and LE. If anything the British OO and N gauge players have had a far less troubled time and have weathered storms over the last 20 years better than their European cousins for the most part.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Along masterful Lines. Most of the locos and wagons and the Pullman coaches were initially offered as Triang/Wrenn with a reliable toy coupler attached, in two rail format only. Retailers were left to get on with it using existing stocks of Binns Road's products for those of their customers wanting their H-D system pure and unpolluted. I gathered from the one retailer that I long ago spoke to that this wasn't that difficult, the problem wasn't availability, but avoiding becoming over stocked with stuff that nobody wanted any longer.

From what I can remember even after the HD range morphed into Triang Wrenn there was still plenty of HD branded stuff being sold.

HD Branded SD wagons were still being supplied with Wrenn branded locos in sets, some of the dealers were breaking these as the individual items seemed to be more saleable. I .ended up with several loose but new HD wagons this way.

[Deltic]

On 18/03/2019 at 19:36, The Stationmaster said:

'95% complete' sounds to me like an awful lot of invested time & money to throw away even if it had only been spent on research and drawings.  One wonders how it might have got that far if it hadn't been approved for full development and production or were Hornby's financial controls that lax back in those days? 

The same happened with the Hellcat, there seemed to be an air in that items 'cared for by Simon' were set aside. One wonders whether other items across the Brands are now going to see the light of day, given the obvious changes in attitude.

 

As to throwing money away, that is exactly what happened, there was no listening to the Public or the Trade - hence the pickle that they found themselves in.  But I have to say that management stupidity was not just at home in Hornby. There are a great number of times in my working life when I came across such activity in the engineering World.  You cannot imagine how much time, effort and money was wasted in chasing a new management dogma - even when pointed out how bad a choice it would be - to be told that 'they knew best'.  Normally the outcome was that they left the Business with those left behind counting the cost whist trying to get a business back on an even keel.

[Dunsignalling]

13 hours ago, melmerby said:

From what I can remember even after the HD range morphed into Triang Wrenn there was still plenty of HD branded stuff being sold.

HD Branded SD wagons were still being supplied with Wrenn branded locos in sets, some of the dealers were breaking these as the individual items seemed to be more saleable. I .ended up with several loose but new HD wagons this way.

 

I picked up a few wagons that way, too, and used them for conversions into all sorts following the articles by Brian Huxley in 1970s Railway Modellers. unfortunately, I didn't keep them, but I did repeat one more recently, shortening a Mica to the correct length.

 

I also seem to remember that Hatton's ended up with loads of HD, including the remaining stock of HD Co-Bo diesels. It was about a decade before they disappeared from their regular advert in Railway Modeller.

 

They started off (I think) at £4/19/6 (£4.97 or thereabouts) but, by 1969, the price was down to 75/- (£3.75) and I'm pretty sure they hadn't all gone by the time the currency got decimalized in 1971. The same ad I found the 1969 price in includes a fairly comprehensive range of Dublo tems, including the (later highly sought after) 2-car SR EMu sets for a mere five guineas!

 

John  

Edited March 26, 2019 by Dunsignalling
Typo.

[jjb1970]

4 hours ago, Deltic said:

The same happened with the Hellcat, there seemed to be an air in that items 'cared for by Simon' were set aside. One wonders whether other items across the Brands are now going to see the light of day, given the obvious changes in attitude..

 

I didn't see any evidence of that in the show. Whatever problems Hornby have had in the last few years, an absence of ambitious new release programs and high quality product hasn't been one of them. Let's remember that it wasn't the last management team that dreamt up design clever, mixing up Railroad and main range models etc.

[bigherb]

5 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

I also seem to remember that Hatton's ended up with loads of HD, including the remaining stock of HD Co-Bo diesels. It was about a decade before they disappeared from their regular advert in Railway Modeller..

John  

2

I bought one in 1984 and they were still advertised for a year or so afterwards.

[RJS1977]

9 hours ago, stewartingram said:

Well, from a conversation I overheard for quite a few minutes at Ally Pally, the proprietor of Rails (is it John?) regards the whole issue of the Rails/Dapol Terrier "conflict" in good taste. He had nothing but admiration for SK, and said they were both in the same business. So as I thought some time ago, it was just media hype to present a storyline in the show.

 

You must have been standing next to me - I heard that as well!

 

(Or quite likely he said it to a lot of people).

[Riddles]

7 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

They started off (I think) at £4/19/6 (£4.97 or thereabouts) but, by 1969, the price was down to 75/- (£3.75) and I'm pretty sure they hadn't all gone by the time the currency got decimalized in 1972.

 

On a point of order, decimalisation day was 15th February 1971

Edited March 26, 2019 by Riddles
Typo

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

I picked up a few wagons that way, too, and used them for conversions into all sorts following the articles by Brian Huxley in 1970s Railway Modellers. unfortunately, I didn't keep them, but I did repeat one more recently, shortening a Mica to the correct length.

 

I also seem to remember that Hatton's ended up with loads of HD, including the remaining stock of HD Co-Bo diesels. It was about a decade before they disappeared from their regular advert in Railway Modeller.

 

They started off (I think) at £4/19/6 (£4.97 or thereabouts) but, by 1969, the price was down to 75/- (£3.75) and I'm pretty sure they hadn't all gone by the time the currency got decimalized in 1971. The same ad I found the 1969 price in includes a fairly comprehensive range of Dublo tems, including the (later highly sought after) 2-car SR EMu sets for a mere five guineas!

 

John  

I believe Hattons cleared a very large amount of remaining HD stock (as in items not just the rolling variety) from Binns Road.

[Deltic]

20 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

I didn't see any evidence of that in the show. Whatever problems Hornby have had in the last few years, an absence of ambitious new release programs and high quality product hasn't been one of them. Let's remember that it wasn't the last management team that dreamt up design clever, mixing up Railroad and main range models etc.

There was a comment made by Lyndon, that the Hellcat had just been placed into a cupboard as it was not seen to be a model Airfix could/would sell. Think that is a good basis for my comment as to the feelings after Simon and others had departed.

Yes, Design Clever was not too clever. Railroad items are in a distinct own sub brand, though it could be argued that the Class 66 should be within the Railroad range.  But is there a need to draw a line - others still release older models within their same one range of models.

[James Makin]

Well, guess what I happened to randomly find while browsing through an old Model Rail letters page from 2004! 

[G-BOAF]

Ha, but when its Hornby giving a glancing tap to Hattons with a Class 66 (glancing as a Railroad 66 is not direct competition to Hattons version), the same company is not so happy... what goes around...

[newbryford]

On 23/03/2019 at 20:00, Oliver Rails said:

Terrier Competition:

 

 

 

It's a bit late now, but

"John doesn't look too pleased at SK giving him a wedgie..........."

[newbryford]

On 24/03/2019 at 14:48, RJS1977 said:

 

If it's got no working lights, it's either a BMW or a bicycle...

 

My bike has working lights................... can't comment on the Beemer though.

[Legend]

I think that when Rails found out about the Hornby Terrier  there was initial disappointment , but now John from Rails has recovered and wageing an effective fight back with banners and his Terrier EPs . Really it’s a storm in a T Cup . Rails need Hornby , Hornby needs Rails . Much more interesting is what’s going on between Bachmann and Hattons which has resulted in action . I know the programs about Hornby , but it’s a surprise that this is not being more widely debated, rather than phoney banner wars.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Legend

[Robin Brasher]

We are not allowed to debate what is going on between Bachmann and Hattons on this site.

 

[Dunsignalling]

20 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

We are not allowed to debate what is going on between Bachmann and Hattons on this site.

 

I think pretty much everybody who's interested (and still cares) will have worked most of it out for themselves by now, so there'd be nothing to be gained from churning it over again, anyhow.

 

The parties involved will either sort things out between themselves or they won't. Neither eventuality will result in the sky falling in.

 

John

Edited March 27, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[No Decorum]

Curiously, I received an e-mail from Hatton’s which informed me about Bachmann’s new 009 stuff. It would seem odd unless Hatton’s hopes to sell it. Perhaps they are sorting things out between themselves.

[Legend]

It is strange . 4 days ago I got a YouTube video from Hattons " Bachmann Class 37- Model Overview" which says these models are available from Hattons.  I suppose it could be Hattons trying to get rid of old stock.  I don't know what happens if you try to place an order for something more recent , but I do note they have Scotrail Mk2s , announced this year, as available to preorder . Surely if they haven't resolved their issues , offering these for pre order is at least misleading .  This is of much more significance than Bannergate

[Ravenser]

On 24/03/2019 at 14:32, Jol Wilkinson said:

John,

 

that somewhat simplistic view of costings may mislead some people into thinking Hornby and other manufacturers make large net profits. You forgot the HMRC's slice, too.

 

What you call profit is actually the "margin" between buying and selling and from which a number of operating costs have to be taken. So the "profit" made by Hornby (or Hattons) is probably considerably less.

The actual unit production cost is probably quite low but won't include design, development, transport, marketing, warehousing, etc. Hatton's probably work on a lower gross margin than you imply, but for retailed products rely on large turnover and low operation costs to achieve their net margins. For both, the actual figures for any particular model or product are probably different anyway, especially if market pricing is use do define RRP and discounts.

 

Jol

 

 

 

 

The correct term here is "contribution" not "profit". "Contribution" is what you make on your unit sales , towards your fixed and system costs. 

 

In shipping , the full form was "contribution towards ship costs" , and here I would assume that the "one third" rule would exclude R&D cost and the cost of the tooling/its depreciation

[Ravenser]

On 25/03/2019 at 16:51, Dunsignalling said:

 

I picked up a few wagons that way, too, and used them for conversions into all sorts following the articles by Brian Huxley in 1970s Railway Modellers. unfortunately, I didn't keep them, but I did repeat one more recently, shortening a Mica to the correct length.

 

I also seem to remember that Hatton's ended up with loads of HD, including the remaining stock of HD Co-Bo diesels. It was about a decade before they disappeared from their regular advert in Railway Modeller.

 

They started off (I think) at £4/19/6 (£4.97 or thereabouts) but, by 1969, the price was down to 75/- (£3.75) and I'm pretty sure they hadn't all gone by the time the currency got decimalized in 1971. The same ad I found the 1969 price in includes a fairly comprehensive range of Dublo tems, including the (later highly sought after) 2-car SR EMu sets for a mere five guineas!

 

John  

 

Hattons were still advertising residual H-D items in 1976-7

 

Shortening the H-D MICA is a demanding conversion, and given that Parkside have now done a kit for the shorter MICAs it's not worth contemplating.

 

On the other hand the other option Brian Huxley  outlined - i.e chop out the ends, replace themjwith unbonneted ends and get the last diagram of MICA - is still valid , and I did one myself a couple of years ago. The genuine H-D body used is older than I am.....

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

Hattons were still advertising residual H-D items in 1976-7

 

Shortening the H-D MICA is a demanding conversion, and given that Parkside have now done a kit for the shorter MICAs it's not worth contemplating.

 

On the other hand the other option Brian Huxley  outlined - i.e chop out the ends, replace themjwith unbonneted ends and get the last diagram of MICA - is still valid , and I did one myself a couple of years ago. The genuine H-D body used is older than I am.....

When Hattons moved, they apparently discovered some HD track.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

Hattons were still advertising residual H-D items in 1976-7

 

Shortening the H-D MICA is a demanding conversion, and given that Parkside have now done a kit for the shorter MICAs it's not worth contemplating.

 

On the other hand the other option Brian Huxley  outlined - i.e chop out the ends, replace themjwith unbonneted ends and get the last diagram of MICA - is still valid , and I did one myself a couple of years ago. The genuine H-D body used is older than I am.....

 

I'd agree the short Mica correction/conversion isn't an easy job, though it seemed easier the second time around. I must be a glutton for punishment, the thick plastic makes it quite "physical" to do. 

 

I finished my "nostalgic repeat" just months before Parkside announced their kit. It will eventually be replaced with a couple of Parkside ones, primarily for the underframes which are somewhat better than the one I cobbled together from leftover kit parts.

 

I've recently picked some more HD/Wrenn ones very cheaply, two with knackered chassis/wheels and the other body-only. These will be used to produce two X9 Micas and one Tevan in the fullness of time - always supposing nobody beats me to it by releasing a kit.....  

 

It was a great pity (IMHO) that HD didn't pick the Mica diagram that was the right length to fit their standard chassis in the first place.

 

John

Edited March 27, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Phil Parker]

5 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

We are not allowed to debate what is going on between Bachmann and Hattons on this site.

 

5 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I think pretty much everybody who's interested (and still cares) will have worked most of it out for themselves by now, so there'd be nothing to be gained from churning it over again, anyhow.

 

The parties involved will either sort things out between themselves or they won't. Neither eventuality will result in the sky falling in.

 

As Dunsignalling says, those who know what is going on are keeping it to themselves. What would be gained from many pages of conspiracy theories from those who don't? After all, as we've seen in this thread, there are people who believe everything they see on telly is gospel...

[big jim]

5 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

there are people who believe everything they see on telly is gospel...

 

What! Hollyoaks isn’t real?