BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[Phil Parker]

Just now, big jim said:

What! Hollyoaks isn’t real?

 

Oh no. That's a documentary. I meant other telly... :-)

[rockershovel]

Regarding the “previous” Hornby management, I recall seeing a number of articles around that time in the financial pages (brand recognition!) suggesting that following the financial decline of preceding years, certain institutional shareholders engineered a change of approach - basically a “dash for cash” to recoup their investment, as far as possible, without undue regard for long-term viability. 

 

This isn’t to say that this management was simply intended as an asset-stripping operation to trash Hornby for whatever it would bring - the assets simply weren’t worth enough, for one thing - but maintaining a full distribution network clearly wasn’t a priority. 

 

 

Ive just seen the second episode on iplayer and thought it was all rather fun, even the “wrinkled old retainer” who clearly doesn’t have a long future ahead of him as a tourist guide...

 

 

[robmcg]

Having only seen the first episode, which I enjoyed, I am curious about the role of the Hornby International brands and how much they bear on Hornby's future.   I never really think of model train shows as being at the centre of things. 

 

I see Hornby-Rivarossi are going to do another 'Big Boy' so they still have the ability.  Their Chesapeake and Ohio H8 2-6-6-6 is/was a stunning model too (also sold under Hornby ownership as the Virginian AG class...    maybe the US market has changed?

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, robmcg said:

Having only seen the first episode, which I enjoyed, I am curious about the role of the Hornby International brands and how much they bear on Hornby's future.   I never really think of model train shows as being at the centre of things. 

 

I see Hornby-Rivarossi are going to do another 'Big Boy' so they still have the ability.  Their Chesapeake and Ohio H8 2-6-6-6 is/was a stunning model too (also sold under Hornby ownership as the Virginian AG class...    maybe the US market has changed?

 As a modeller of French prototypes the situation with Hornby-Jouef is of obvious interest/concern but the Hornby International brands weren't mentioned at all. Their ranges are far smaller, as I suspect are their sales compared with the UK. 

[RJS1977]

10 hours ago, robmcg said:

Having only seen the first episode, which I enjoyed, I am curious about the role of the Hornby International brands and how much they bear on Hornby's future.   I never really think of model train shows as being at the centre of things. 

 

I see Hornby-Rivarossi are going to do another 'Big Boy' so they still have the ability.  Their Chesapeake and Ohio H8 2-6-6-6 is/was a stunning model too (also sold under Hornby ownership as the Virginian AG class...    maybe the US market has changed?

 

With a UP Big Boy currently being returned to steam, it's a fairly obvious one for Rivarossi to do.

[ruggedpeak]

19 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

 

As Dunsignalling says, those who know what is going on are keeping it to themselves. What would be gained from many pages of conspiracy theories from those who don't? After all, as we've seen in this thread, there are people who believe everything they see on telly is gospel...

Oh. I thought that's what the Internet was for

[DonnyRailMan]

I liked it when Simon showed Hattons the Hornby 66 and Rails Of Sheffiels the Hornby Terrier ,both of there faces where a picture. At the end of the day both Rails & Hattons will be able to produce one off's every now and then.

[Robin Brasher]

Returning to the issue of duplication, which has been discussed relating to the class 66 and the terrier, an early example of duplication was the 'Flying Scotsman,' In 1968 both Tri-ang Hornby and Trix produced models of the 'Flying Scotsman'. The Trix model was in LNER livery and the Tri-ang Hornby model was originally in BR livery but an LNER version followed a month later possibly in response to the Trix version. The Tri-ang Hornby model cost 99s 11p whereas the Trix model cost £7. 7s and B.M.W. models of Wimbledon described it as worth the extra.  On test by the Model Railway Constructor the Tri-ang version was noisy, had a minimum scale speed of 20mph and hauled a maximum of three Hornby coaches ( presumably Hornby Dublo).  On steel track with the benefit of magnadhesion it hauled 10 Hornby coaches. The Trix version had a minimum scale speed of 5mph and the reviewer could not find enough stock to bring the locomotive to a standstill. It hauled 13 Hornby coaches and then 15 Tri-ang and Trix coaches. I think that the Tri-ang Hornby version sold better but perhaps the completion from Trix encouraged Tri-ang Hornby to produce better models like the tender driven version. I think that the present Hornby models of 'Flying Scotsman, are better than the 1968 Trix version.

[JohnR]

22 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

 

As Dunsignalling says, those who know what is going on are keeping it to themselves. What would be gained from many pages of conspiracy theories from those who don't? After all, as we've seen in this thread, there are people who believe everything they see on telly is gospel...

 

You've just written off half of the Wheeltappers forum!

[DonnyRailMan]

A follow up program would be intresting showing how Hornby had got on since thsee two programs where shown. 

[AY Mod]

On 15/03/2019 at 21:52, DonnyRailMan said:

I liked it when Simon showed Hattons the Hornby 66 and Rails Of Sheffiels the Hornby Terrier ,both of there faces where a picture.

 

6 hours ago, DonnyRailMan said:

I liked it when Simon showed Hattons the Hornby 66 and Rails Of Sheffiels the Hornby Terrier ,both of there faces where a picture. At the end of the day both Rails & Hattons will be able to produce one off's every now and then.

 

Duplication of models is one thing but duplicating posts is another.

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

You've just written off half of the Wheeltappers forum!

Only half?

[Robin Brasher]

Interesting letter from David Quarrie of EGRM Club in York in the April Railway Magazine guide to Modelling. He said that more and more folk cannot afford to buy new but there is a huge demand for wagons, locomotives... and passengers on the second hand market. Most of the sales are to adults.

 

I recently bought an unused 'Duchess of Sutherland' for £69 which seems better value for money than my new 'Duchess of Montrose' which cost about £170 but I think that Hornby's new locomotives are selling well.

 

I found it difficult to sell my old Hornby coaches which are now in the Railroad range and looking at Hattons' sale of the century it looks like they are having problems selling some new Railroad coaches at anything like the full price.

 

I wonder if Hornby is doing well in selling locomotives and authentic coaches but not so well in other model railway items.

[Ian J.]

I get the impression, looking around the traders at shows, that the market is somewhat saturated with secondhand products, so it's possible that it's getting somewhat difficult to offload older items. I imagine that new items, especially of prototypes not done before, still get sales due to their 'newness'.

[Jol Wilkinson]

It may be that the s/h models market has become like s/h railway books. The number coming on to the market, from deceased modellers estates, those thinning out their libraries, etc. has exceeded the demand for a number of years.

 

Ebay and other sales routes have increased the ease with which things can be sold (or, in many cases traded). Coupled with the improved RTR products available today, then I suspect a significant number of  modellers now try to sell their older models to fund new, "better", ones. Adverts by the major retailers, offering to buy s/h models also possibly give s the impression that their is a strong market.

[adb968008]

38 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

It may be that the s/h models market has become like s/h railway books. The number coming on to the market, from deceased modellers estates, those thinning out their libraries, etc. has exceeded the demand for a number of years.

 

Ebay and other sales routes have increased the ease with which things can be sold (or, in many cases traded). Coupled with the improved RTR products available today, then I suspect a significant number of  modellers now try to sell their older models to fund new, "better", ones. Adverts by the major retailers, offering to buy s/h models also possibly give s the impression that their is a strong market.

That’s a misnomer.

 

20 years ago, you had a choice of over 1400 swapmeets across the country, weekends, evenings, but no iPad, ebay, laptop or mobile phone.

 

If you consider there could be up to 300-400 odd home based traders up and down the country, with a car boot stashed with 200 odd railway items in it, and a garage full at home  you soon get a figure of 80-100k items of model Railways for sale..

 

today the swapmeets is dead and gone, and ebay has 100k-150k items listed, including many shops that now take advantage of ebay, that didn’t previously do swapmeets.

 

the numbers of shops has shrunk, and anecdotal data suggests runs of the past have shrunk, but I dare say everyone’s collections have only ever grown bigger over the years, ebays made it easier to mop up any excess without leaving your couch to hunt for it.

 

certainly 20 years ago my collection wasn’t as big as it is today. How long can it continue though ?- Lledo vans used to be massively popular, binware today.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by adb968008

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

It may be that the s/h models market has become like s/h railway books. The number coming on to the market, from deceased modellers estates, those thinning out their libraries, etc. has exceeded the demand for a number of years.

 

Ebay and other sales routes have increased the ease with which things can be sold (or, in many cases traded). Coupled with the improved RTR products available today, then I suspect a significant number of  modellers now try to sell their older models to fund new, "better", ones. Adverts by the major retailers, offering to buy s/h models also possibly give s the impression that their is a strong market.

 

 

Jol

 

I think its the opposite, eBay has created a market for items that in the past would have been thrown away, especially the more specialist items. Like most others I like a bargain, however in the kit world there is a very healthy turnover of both kits and parts. Not in to the RTR market but just bought a Dapol 0 gauge Terrier, had to pay 3 figures for one. Just look at the lots some items go for a lot others cheaply, like any other commodity run of the mill items have to be priced sensibly, more exotic go for good money. Like the antique market what's in vogue changes, on the other hand at the moment its the silver surfers buying items they could not afford in the past, but as you say the market is fickle

 

Rarely see any of John's items up for sale and those that are fetch good prices   

[hayfield]

11 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

Interesting letter from David Quarrie of EGRM Club in York in the April Railway Magazine guide to Modelling. He said that more and more folk cannot afford to buy new but there is a huge demand for wagons, locomotives... and passengers on the second hand market. Most of the sales are to adults.

 

I recently bought an unused 'Duchess of Sutherland' for £69 which seems better value for money than my new 'Duchess of Montrose' which cost about £170 but I think that Hornby's new locomotives are selling well.

 

I found it difficult to sell my old Hornby coaches which are now in the Railroad range and looking at Hattons' sale of the century it looks like they are having problems selling some new Railroad coaches at anything like the full price.

 

I wonder if Hornby is doing well in selling locomotives and authentic coaches but not so well in other model railway items.

 

 

Robin

 

The demand has been there for some time, mainly fed by the lack of local model shops, or buying cheaper play things for children, or just making better use of money. The club sales stand at our clubs show is swamped, plus always 2 or 2 s/h traders doing good business. On the other hand there are many who buy the expensive locos which seem to come out regularly

[Phil Parker]

11 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

He said that more and more folk cannot afford to buy new but there is a huge demand for wagons, locomotives... and passengers on the second hand market.

 

Cannot afford, or simply are unwilling to pay the price for more modern stuff?

 

Railway modellers are notoriously tight-fisted (I've already seen someone saying they like the look of the new Bachmann 94xx, but will be waiting until they appear in bargain bins)  but also moan that runs of new stock sell out before they can get their paws on them.  Postings on Facebook would seem to suggest plenty of people are snapping stuff up as soon as it appears.  There is money out there judging by the sales of DCC stuff and the numbers willing to trade cash for very simple model-making jobs such as putting coal in tenders. 

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

today the swapmeets is dead and gone

 

The SMALL swapmeet has gone. There are still several large events taking place.

[Legend]

I think eBay or the internet in general may be another part of the dynamic .  Now its much easier to dispose of older models and buy them whereas before you really either kept them, because they wouldn't realise much anyway or took them down the local model shop.  So its another bit of competition for Hornby and another way the market has changed . Do you want the new Duchess at £179 or possibly around £150 discounted, or are you happy to pick up the previous version at £90-£100.   There are those that must have the latest and most detailed, others are willing to settle for less.

 

As I've said before I don't really have a local model shop any more , but I'm compensating by having a regular trawl of an evening through eBay to see what turns up.

 

Again you can now see the Hornby strategy of introducing regular new models to stimulate demand  and keeping the price sensible ie the 66s  because they are competing with second hand Bachmann 66s , not just new ones  and the forthcoming Hattons one .

Edited March 29, 2019 by Legend

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

It may be that the s/h models market has become like s/h railway books. The number coming on to the market, from deceased modellers estates, those thinning out their libraries, etc. has exceeded the demand for a number of years.

 

Ebay and other sales routes have increased the ease with which things can be sold (or, in many cases traded). Coupled with the improved RTR products available today, then I suspect a significant number of  modellers now try to sell their older models to fund new, "better", ones. Adverts by the major retailers, offering to buy s/h models also possibly give s the impression that their is a strong market.

I agree with you and the comparison with railway books is very apt in my experience.  The thing about secondhand models - however they are sold - is that there still seem to be fashions and certain items are high in popularity while others lurk in the doldrums and go for peanuts.  A chap I know organises a couple of swapmeets a year - they are large and heavily attended events and they offer some more specialised stuff (Bowman anybody?) as well as run of the mill r-t-r and prices are exactly what the market sets.  And run of the mill prices are well down in what is really a flooded marketplace, except for those 'fashionable' items, and - as in everything else - fashions change all the time.   

 

Selling to fund upgrades is typical of many collecting hobbies but again prices are influenced by fashions and availability.  Thus if, say, Hornby introduce a new pacific as an upgrade (or, dare I say it, a Terrier?) people will sell old ones to fund the upgrade and the market for the older ones will see a price drop due to both increased availability of the old ones and competition from the new ones.  Very much the sort of thing 'Legend' identified with the Class 66 although there things are a good deal more complex.

 

Overall I see far more secondhand available nowadays than was the case a few years back and don't forget too that the auction market is something that is relatively new for fairly recent  r-t-r although far less well known than the likes of buying through retailers or EBay, and it is a growing market.

[adb968008]

Books isnt quite apt though.

like it or not, the book has been replaced by the internet.

 

buying a book online invariably requires prior knowledge (on ebay you can only judge the book by its cover)... 

 

model railways hasnt been replaced by the internet, just altered the preferred the medium for buying model railways.

 

A more apt comparison might be second hand cars, taking your old one for a trade in is reduced these days to increase in sales to specialist websites and private trades like ebay, gumtree, craigslist.

 

The change is exposure, you as a modeller saw what was in your local shop window, today you can see what is in everyones shop window globally... the perception is you see more so there must be more, when its probably the same but you just couldnt see it all before.

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by adb968008

[dibber25]

4 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Books isnt quite apt though.

like it or not, the book has been replaced by the internet.

 

 

 

That depends entirely on the specific subject and the depth of research being conducted. As one who regularly has to research railway equipment for reviews, the internet is of very limited use. Even basic dimensions, for instance, are often impossible to find and most historical information is superficial or requires cross-checking against books for accuracy. The internet is superficially useful but it certainly has not replaced books where serious, thorough and informed coverage is required. When it has been around for 600 years it might match books, of course! (CJL)

[adb968008]

12 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

That depends entirely on the specific subject and the depth of research being conducted. As one who regularly has to research railway equipment for reviews, the internet is of very limited use. Even basic dimensions, for instance, are often impossible to find and most historical information is superficial or requires cross-checking against books for accuracy. The internet is superficially useful but it certainly has not replaced books where serious, thorough and informed coverage is required. When it has been around for 600 years it might match books, of course! (CJL)

I don’t disagree, but for the buying public who don’t do detailed academic research, which is the majority...

i draw the honourable gentleman to the next two lines of my post...

 

Quote

buying a book online invariably requires prior knowledge (on ebay you can only judge the book by its cover)... 

Though google is actively scanning and indexing thousands of books globally every week, magazines are digitising their volumes and back catalogs... it’s just a matter of time and it will be faster than 600 years, probably less than 6 years that the bulk of common printed subject matter ends up online...

 

i for one dumped my CD, Tape, VHS, DVD, LP collection nigh on 10 years ago.  As my slide collection was corroding I digitised that 100k I ages ten years back too.

 

The world is moving on, and back to subject, books isn’t the best comparison as many don’t want books any more, and unlike model railways won’t have upgraded an old book to a new book.

Edited March 29, 2019 by adb968008

[Dunsignalling]

27 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I don’t disagree, but for the buying public who don’t do detailed academic research, which is the majority...

i draw the honourable gentleman to the next two lines of my post...

 

 

Books for what you know you are really interested in, and there are "go to" authors for specific subjects (e.g. Mike King, David Jenkinson). Their works will always find homes with those aspiring to represent the prototype convincingly.

 

The Internet is more useful for what piques ones curiosity, which may or may not become something one wishes to study in more detail. In my experience that frequently leads to buying more books.

 

I use it mainly to find photos of vehicles in "in service" condition to aid finishing of models. There is more to be had, but it's seldom possible to find all the info needed to build something from any one website. Even after fairly extensive trawling there's usually some small gap or other.

 

The printed volumes that (deservedly) tend to go for pennies are the mainly pictorial "general interest" compilations. There is a permanent glut of the loosely-themed stuff put out (often as follow-ups to TV series) and primarily aimed at the "non-enthusiast" market, i.e. a lot of what we tend to receive at Christmas.  

 

John

Edited March 29, 2019 by Dunsignalling