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Need help with layout revision!


spikey
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mainrev-a.jpg

 

That's the plan of most of one side of my 00 branch line as it was until yesterday. The only bit of this side that's not shown is a curve on the left-hand side, which mirrors the one on the right and which is on a lifting flap across the door.  Those two curves connect to the rest of the layout, which is basically an oval with a scenic fiddle/marshalling yard on the other side of the room.  Hopefully most of that is self-explanatory, except for the bit below the red line, all of which is private sidings serving a factory on the right.

 

I scrapped the whole shebang because I wasn't happy with several aspects of it, including the layout of that goods yard.  In particular, the goods shed was rather pointlessly at the end of a long siding along which there was no ready vehicular access, the effective length of the cattle dock/mileage siding was reduced by the over-long coal siding above it on the plan, and the whole area bugged me because it wasn't "busy" enough i.e. there was too much empty space!  There was also the matter of goods trains using the running line to the right of the station as a headshunt when arriving and departing the yard, but I decided I could live with that as (a) we're one engine in steam here and (b) I couldn't think of an alternative.

 

If it helps to know, period is late-50s/early-60s (with Rule One applying to the PO wagons), and locos are all 0-6-0 except for the little diesel which shunts the private sidings.  Passenger trains are usually two coaches, and goods trains 12 wagons max.  I want to keep the curve in on the right, the track going off to the left and the station with passing loop pretty much where they are, and the private/factory sidings need to be incorporated in MkII pretty much as is.  But how can I improve on the goods yard layout to make it look "busier" and help me justify the number of tank and PO wagons I've bought?  Right now I'm looking at a bare baseboard and I'm getting nowhere ...

 

 

Edited by spikey
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I'm not sure what you're looking for but to me the goods yard has too much track in it making some of it useless.  The siding between the end dock and the goods shed road has no traffic use except for standing wagons and they then can't be easily shunted to where they might be wanted.  the good shed could be a bit closer in on the siding to give room to stand 3-4 wagons beyond it.

 

But the big problem is the end loading dock in the middle of the yard where it occupies space that could be used to access wagons.  So I would put it at the end of the cattle dock siding where it's out of the way because unless you have soem particular local need it's going to be one of the least used features in that yard.  I would then extend the dock siding (as was) to provide more full loads siding capacity.

 

Don't forget the big need in any yard is to get road vehicles alongside rail vehicles to load and unload, except possibly for coal which might well be put to ground (therefore needs stacking space) before being bagged.  And those road vehicles need room to turn between the sidings they are serving.

 

You're also missing a trap point at the yard exit so possibly the firsts turnout could be made a double slip to create the trap and even a short spur off it. (no need for headshunt, do what the real railway did and shunt off the running line).

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To me the track plan looks so unprototypical as to render it unbelievable , especially the lower section.  The run around using the platform is OK , as in lightly used branches , it was common enough configuration 

The whole goods yard is far too complex for a prototypical layout , there seems to be complexity for the sake of it , yet Railway companies tended to justify everything based on  running  need and costs, here the general desire for simplicity 

 

also if those are 1 foot squares,  the loco release is tight enough !

 

 

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Too many wiggles to my eye. I would try to smooth everything out.

 

And like the others have said, I think fewer longer sidings would be better, with the buildings and docks re-arranged. (Have you got a crane?)

 

You could try splaying some of the sidings out at different angles a bit so that they don't keep turning back to be parallel with the edge of the baseboard. The splay could create the room for road vehicle turning that Mike mentioned above.

 

I think I would definitely try to re-arrange the private sidings as well. There are various possible ways.

 

BTW: Is this is a through station on a single track branch line? Is the platform loop mainly for passing rather than running round and should there be a platform on the south side of the loop as well as the north?

 

Edited by Harlequin
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I reckon pruning the short sidings would improve it.  I haven't done it on anyrail but I reckon my doodle could be a basis.  See pic

I would have a gate across the private siding and ban BR locos from passing it. Diesel could run to end of headshunt and exchange wagons and again be banned from going beyond the gate.

Paired sidings for coal or general merchandise should be as close as practical. Goods yard access by Goods Shed.

Screenshot (278)a.png

Edited by DavidCBroad
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9 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I'm not sure what you're looking for but to me the goods yard has too much track in it making some of it useless.

And that's about as far as I could get when Mrs Spikey enquired why I was attacking half the railway with an old wood chisel!  I couldn't see the wood for the trees, but now I can.  Thank you.

 

7 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Too many wiggles to my eye. I would try to smooth everything out.

And like the others have said, I think fewer longer sidings would be better, with the buildings and docks re-arranged. (Have you got a crane?)

You could try splaying some of the sidings out at different angles a bit so that they don't keep turning back to be parallel with the edge of the baseboard. The splay could create the room for road vehicle turning that Mike mentioned above.

I think I would definitely try to re-arrange the private sidings as well. There are various possible ways.

 

BTW: Is this is a through station on a single track branch line? Is the platform loop mainly for passing rather than running round and should there be a platform on the south side of the loop as well as the north?

All very good points, thank you, and yes there is a yard crane.  It's a through station on a single track branch, with a single platform length of only two coaches, and the loop's mainly for running round goods arrivals and departures.  There's a passing loop on the other side of the room.

 

It's actually the private sidings that I struggle with the most.  They're there to serve a busy factory, which I need in order to justify having too many tankers and interesting wagons, plus a liking for little industrial diesels and being able to shunt a corner of the layout while Mrs Spikey's playing trains on the rest of the railway.  I'd very much appreciate any suggestions you might have for the private sidings.

7 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

I reckon pruning the short sidings would improve it.  I haven't done it on anyrail but I reckon my doodle could be a basis.  See pic

I would have a gate across the private siding and ban BR locos from passing it. Diesel could run to end of headshunt and exchange wagons and again be banned from going beyond the gate.

Paired sidings for coal or general merchandise should be as close as practical. Goods yard access by Goods Shed.

Screenshot (278)a.png

The private sidings were in fact segregated exactly as in your drawing, for which I thank you.  More food for thought!

 

This is great stuff, gentlemen.  This morning I'm finishing off the new baseboard and this time there's no particular rush to finalise the track layout and get trains running.  The railway is mainly freight, and the only bits that are cast in stone are ...

 

The curve on the right stays, as does its mirror image off to the left.  They can't be moved downwards (towards the front of the baseboard) because I don't want to tighten the radii, so the through line past the single platform has to be pretty much where it is.

 

I need a goods shed, cattle dock, end dock, coal and mileage sidings, plus private run-round loop and at least three sidings for a factory area.

 

I'm wide open to suggestions for everything else, so I'll be very interested to see any further thoughts you may have.

 

 

Edited by spikey
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I was looking at the latest itteration of the plans and thought... that looked familiar..

Ludgershall on the MSWJR had a similar layout.. to the left of the over bridge in the middle that is..

Here's the GWR map taken when they took over at grouping (courtesy of  http://swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/ )

 

 

ds24[1].jpg

 

 

Edited by TheQ
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11 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 ... the good shed could be a bit closer in on the siding to give room to stand 3-4 wagons beyond it.

Been thinking ... I remember seeing just that often enough, but I was never sure quite how it worked.  If say four vans needed to be unloaded in the goods shed, was the theory that they'd stay coupled together so as not to leave any on yon side of it when they were collected?  Or was the idea that if a wagon or two ended up parked through the shed, the collecting loco would arrive with a couple of wagons in front of it so as not to enter the building (when anybody was looking)?

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The official way was for the shunter (man) to use his bar to propel the loose wagon manually  back through the shed

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I was thinking that, for a small station like this, one option would be to have a less grand goods building - a timber platform and a simple timber building beside the siding rather than covering it. Then you'd have no problems with a loco picking up wagons anywhere along the siding.

 

You could also add a separate provender store. That sort of goods arrangement would make your station a little bit different and more characterful than the run-of-the-mill model - and avoid a bulky goods building obscuring the view.

 

Edited by Harlequin
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52 minutes ago, spikey said:

Been thinking ... I remember seeing just that often enough, but I was never sure quite how it worked.  If say four vans needed to be unloaded in the goods shed, was the theory that they'd stay coupled together so as not to leave any on yon side of it when they were collected?  Or was the idea that if a wagon or two ended up parked through the shed, the collecting loco would arrive with a couple of wagons in front of it so as not to enter the building (when anybody was looking)?

Nice and straightforward in the real world, but in the finger-poking league on a model.  The shed itself isn't very big (not a criticism, nowt wrong with that) but that constrains the number of wagons that can be worked on so the simplest answer is to push some beyond the shed once they've been emptied and then push some more into the space they occupied.  At a small station this was normally done by use of a pinchbar to get the wagons moving and then push them by hand - dead easy to keep them moving, especially when empty, but you need the pinch bar to get them underway.  at v busier places a capstan would be used and at really large depots a shunting pilot might have been involved. 

 

Also at small stations o in older days a horse (normally used with a delivery vehicle) might be used but a pinchbar and a couple of fellahs would be quicker and it would be easier to stop the wagon(s) than if they were being pulled by a horse.

 

The other alternative - as happened at my local station where there was no room to extend teh track beyond the shed - would be to add a platform outside the shed from which goods could be also easily moved into/from the shed as well as worked from/to wagons.

 

35 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

I was thinking that, for a small station like this, one option would be to have a less grand goods building - a timber platform and a simple timber building beside the siding rather than covering it. Then you'd have no problems with a loco picking up wagons anywhere along the siding.

 

You could also add a separate provender store. That sort of goods arrangement would make your station a little bit different and more characterful than the run-of-the-mill model - and avoid a bulky goods building obscuring the view.

 

A lot depends on the sort of area and community the station is serving.  Some branch line station handled considerable amounts of goods traffic (usually more inwards that outwards) while others were very quiet as far as goods traffic went.  your back story can be adjusted to suit whichever you want.

 

The Private Sidings

 

The layout and method of working depends very much on the sort of industry being served (obviously - sorry I'm teaching you to suck eggs on that one).  The key is to have a headshunt long enough to enable the sidings to be shunted and inwards and outwards wagons sorted from each other and your layout has exactly that capability, which suggests a relatively busy or complicated industry. (sugar beet processing factory perhaps although their work was highly seasonal?).  The only real problem is the method of exchange  as any arriving wagons inevitably have to be shunted onto the private diesel loco unless there is a run round loop and you don't really have space for a decent length loop.  Your revised idea is however wholly workable although a bit unusual but again there were plenty of places where far from ideal track layouts existed within private sidings so provided you have room to shunt the sidings you can keep going at it until you get bored or run out of wagons - and that is what really matters.

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Thanks gents.  So do I stick with the station loop with sidings running off the R/H end of it as in my OP diagram and use the running line to the right as the headshunt?  It works in practice and it seems feasible enough to me, but what would I know? 

 

BTW, this whole thing just needs to be more or less feasible rather than prototypical.  I am after all running RTR with tension locks on 16.5mm track, and the odds on the layout being properly signalled any time soon are decidedly slender ...

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plan-c.jpg

 

This is where I'm at so far.  The general idea is that the ground level either side of both pairs of sidings will be not far off the top of the rails, so that vehicles can drive over the tracks when required.  I'm not certain, but I seem to recall seeing just that in a goods yard somewhere in Lincolnshire years ago.

 

What I'm now scratching my head about is ...

 

Is that sensible?

 

Where does the yard crane go?

 

Would I need to run a fence between the cattle dock siding and the loop line?

 

And what do I do by way of a coal siding?

 

NB Having realised that it's superfluous, I've done away with the run-round loop in the private sidings, but I haven't yet changed anything else on that side of the fence.

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I've drawn an idea. (I had a lot of trouble uploading it but dogged persistence seems to have finally worked...)

 

Spikey5.png.d12a9373b03ff1d3288b928bcdd11d90.png

 

Two sets of two sidings, 1,2 & 3,4:

1. Combined cattle dock, end loading and empties siding.

2. Goods shed (shown as a simple alongside version but could be a through-shed).

<Splay>

3. Back siding or mileage siding. Coal wagons unloaded from here.

4. Exchange siding / headshunt for private industry.

 

The crossover between 3 and 4 is normally kept locked, non-crossing, except when there are wagons to exchange. Then it’s unlocked by the railway company. This makes the design work but I'm not sure it's prototypical... 

When it’s locked there’s an implied dividing line between operations on sidings 3 and 4, siding 4 can be used by the private shunter, but there’s no physical fence.

 

Run round in private sidings.

Crossover to protect passenger lines from goods.

Edited by Harlequin
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11 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

Spikey5.png.d12a9373b03ff1d3288b928bcdd11d90.png

 

Phil, that's a very elegant solution, which I like very much.  i can picture that as seen from my operating position, and I reckon it's very close to my ideal.  I bow low before your awesomeness.

 

9 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

We had a whole thread on spikey's private sidings ...

 

Didn't we just, and very useful it was too.  I hadn't realised until last week that the main reason I couldn't get anywhere with them was a chicken and egg situation: I couldn't envisage the layout of the factory premises until I had an idea of what I was going to do with the sidings, and I couldn't decide that until I worked out what buildings and plant I needed where.  And that depended on what the factory actually does.

 

I've now got a better idea of that, and I'm also decided that the factory railway does in fact need a run-round loop.  I was minded to do away with it on the grounds that I could envisage the system working perfectly well without one, but it then occurred to me that if Mrs Spikey's playing trains on the rest of the railway and I'm operating the factory railway as a separate system, the loop would add to the fun.

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18 hours ago, spikey said:

plan-c.jpg

 

This is where I'm at so far.  The general idea is that the ground level either side of both pairs of sidings will be not far off the top of the rails, so that vehicles can drive over the tracks when required.  I'm not certain, but I seem to recall seeing just that in a goods yard somewhere in Lincolnshire years ago.

 

What I'm now scratching my head about is ...

 

Is that sensible?

 

Where does the yard crane go?

 

Would I need to run a fence between the cattle dock siding and the loop line?

 

And what do I do by way of a coal siding?

 

NB Having realised that it's superfluous, I've done away with the run-round loop in the private sidings, but I haven't yet changed anything else on that side of the fence.

I like that as it is - and not the way 'Harlequin' has mov ed various buildings around.  I'll explain and try to answer your questions.

 

What you plan does is create a large space between the sidings exactly where it is needed and still leave room for road vehicles.trailers to stand at the goods shed - so objectives are achieved in that respect.  The cattle accessing the cattle dock are kept away from passing trains, particularly closely passing trains, and their 'output' isn't going to go anywhere near them either plus the dock can be accessed by road vehicles or drovers (subject to a suitable ramp somewhere.  There are two sidings available for full loads traffic with good vehicular access (no need for the road surface to be at rail level, that was more common in the larger paved urban goods yards).  

 

Don't forget that in many yards, especially more rural and small town locations full loads traffic was far more common than traffic worked through the goods shed so it needed more siding room, your latest plan provides more suitable siding space for full loads than 'Harlequin's' alternative, by at least 2 and maybe 3 wagons.  With two sidings you can use part of one of them for coal traffic - don't forget that it varied seasonally and in any case the quantity depended entirely on the size of the community being served, a small village would probably merit no more than 2 or 3 wagon's worth of siding usage (that was certainly the case on our branch).

 

You I think have put the private siding boundary fence in the right place - in Harlequin's plan with the fence in a different place there would be a need for the private loco to shunt out onto railway property so some extra paperwork involved and staff training and re-examination = cost for the private industry.

 

So yes, your layout is sensible, in fact it's pretty clever considering the space into which it has to fit PROVIDED that the pointwork will fit and leave those siding lengths.  The yard crane is a good question - back to era modelled and you might justify a mobile crane attending when needed otherwise alongside one of the two full loads sidings and don't worry if it's near the stop blocks - cranage traffic wasn't all that common in later years so it doe spend on period and location modelled.

 

No need to fence the sidings from the running lines - it's all railway operational land and the way you have the various facilities arranged will take no non-railway staff near the running lines (and nobody cared much if they did anyway - a long time ago, when I was in the school Army Cadet Force I spent a Saturday afternoon loading 'military stores' from our summer camp into Vanfits in Machynlleth goods yard and could wander wherever I liked, including the adjacent engine shed, nobody took any notice of me).

 

But, BUT BUT 'Harlequin' has very correctly put in that double slip to create the essential trap point and provided a short spur beyond it - you need to make sure you somehow get a trap point in.  And shunting out onto the single line - well that's how it was done in most places and just about the only 'sort of traditional' smaller station goods yard I had on my patch in the 1970s gave you no option to do anything else - especially during the sugar beet harvest when the yard was full.

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4 hours ago, spikey said:

 

I've now got a better idea of that, and I'm also decided that the factory railway does in fact need a run-round loop.  I was minded to do away with it on the grounds that I could envisage the system working perfectly well without one, but it then occurred to me that if Mrs Spikey's playing trains on the rest of the railway and I'm operating the factory railway as a separate system, the loop would add to the fun

 

Agreed, but I still prefer the arrangement with the loop around the exchange siding.  Placing it within the factory leaves you with only one and a bit usable sidings rather than the full three.

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1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

... The yard crane is a good question - back to era modelled and you might justify a mobile crane attending when needed otherwise alongside one of the two full loads sidings and don't worry if it's near the stop blocks - cranage traffic wasn't all that common in later years so it doe spend on period and location modelled ...

 

Thank you for yet another comprehensive and extremely useful reply.  Gosh, am I learning stuff here!  Ref the yard crane, we have to have one because I've built one

 

Period is early emblem BR, location is East Midlands-ish, but Rule One applies if I'm pushed.

 

32 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Agreed, but I still prefer the arrangement with the loop around the exchange siding.  Placing it within the factory leaves you with only one and a bit usable sidings rather than the full three.

 

That dawned on me earlier today, so right now it's looking like the factory sidings have the general position and orientation of Phil's drawing but with the loop pretty much as in my OP. 

 

We're getting there :)

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(Stepping gingerly around the random post about Stowmarket...)

 

Re. The run round loop in the industrial sidings in my drawing:

As drawn it uses medium radius points. Small radius would give more room. And the crossover points don't prevent you using the full length of those sidings when you're not using the crossover, of course.

 

@spikey Did I get the size correct? 9ft by 2ft 6in?

 

@The Stationmaster My suggested arrangement for allowing the private shunter to use the exchange siding to shunt the private yard was that the crossover to the exchange siding would be locked (e.g. by Annetts key). So although the shunter would technically be on railway property it could never escape onto the system. Is that remotely plausible?

 

Edited by Harlequin
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49 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

(Stepping gingerly around the random post about Stowmarket...)

 

Re. The run round loop in the industrial sidings in my drawing:

As drawn it uses medium radius points. Small radius would give more room. And the crossover points don't prevent you using the full length of those sidings when you're not using the crossover, of course.

 

 

 

@The Stationmaster My suggested arrangement for allowing the private shunter to use the exchange siding to shunt the private yard was that the crossover to the exchange siding would be locked (e.g. by Annetts key). So although the shunter would technically be on railway property it could never escape onto the system. Is that remotely plausible?

 

Forget Annetts Key - much too expensive for that job - if anything at all it would be a point clip with a 'special'. (i.e locally unique key pattern) padlock or maybe even a standard padlock after the special one was 'lost'.

 

But even that does not do away with the essential fact that the siding is railway property rather than private so any private loco and personnel using it have to be subject to 'the railway's' requirements, and have their permission for each and every movement 'over the border'  Note *.  It's always far simpler admin wise to do it the other way round and have 'the railway's' loco running into a defined part of the private siding layout.  Although the private industry might still defend their boundary with a point clip although in everyday practice the gate was usually considered sufficient.

 

In addition, coming back to Spikey and Mrs Spikey running their separate bits of railway the private sidings layout cannot be shunted within its own boundaries if the boundary is where you have put it as there is no headroom to move vehicles between sidings.

 

Note *. Such an i Instruction would inevitably soon be 'overlooked' and an 'alright Fred?' at the beginning of the day would soon became the everyday way of doing things.  Which would be fine - until the inevitable collision happens.

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1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

(Stepping gingerly around the random post about Stowmarket...)

 

Yeah, what's that about then?

 

Whatever, it's actually 2ft 8" wide, but at least the error's in the right direction :)

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10 hours ago, roundhouse said:

Stopped off at Stowmarket. Pub just to right of where I stood to take the shot of this marvelous structure

Wormholes in the cloud!

 

Sorry Spikey for the intrusion, but Mike figured out where this post belongs. It's from Early Risers. An interesting bug in the new software has presented itself.

 

"... we will be restoring normality just as soon as we are sure what is normal anyway"

Edited by Ozexpatriate
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Here's a revised suggestion, bringing together people's ideas:

Spikey6.png.f905de5cedf18bb5c52d55077ee6fbac.png

 

Uses the extra 2 inches to get maximum length in the exchange siding.

The run round loop in the private sidings is much longer.

(Possibly a bit too "linear"?)

Anyway, there it is.

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