Graham Farish 00 gauge 9410 -help wanted

[cliffrocker]

Newbie here so please be gentle !

I have acquired a non-runner 00 gauge Farish 9410 and cannot find any diagrams/service sheets anywhere. No Bachmann don't have any.

I am not sure if it is complete as motor floats around with a bed of Blu-Tank to hold it in place. The motor runs OK but will not engage the drive gear.

Any help with what it should look like would be much appreciated. Are any spares available anywhere?

[Il Grifone]

Welome to RMweb! 

 

The motor should be bolted in place (no Blu-Tac!). I have never seen a service sheet. I don't think they ever existed.  I'll have to dig mine out to see the details, but IIRC the motor is held by two screws and pickup is from bronze strips which contact only the first two wheelsets.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Il Grifone

[cliffrocker]

Hi Il Grifone and thanks for the welcome.

Pickup is from 2 interleaved bronze strips with a black plastic strip between them, with pickups on the front and the rear wheels - not the central unflanged driven wheel. It sounds from what you say as if the motor ( and pinion ? ) may not be correct as there seems to be no fixing screws, or holes, for the motor which is housed in a black plastic framework. The plastic gear wheel seems worn on one side as if the pinion has been wearing it away rather than engaging. Beginning to think this 94xx may end up populating the engine shed! Any pictures would more than welcome.

[Il Grifone]

I'll have to see if I can find which boxes they're in. A worn gear does seem fatal, but parts do turn up from time to time. It would be worth restoring as mine run very well.

 

The model does have a few faults - bunker steps on the driver's side and that awful safety valve cover, but it is considerably better than Lima's effort.

[cliffrocker]

I have established through my local club that the motor is probably a recent Hornby one in a plastic frame, not the correct motor definitely. There is still the worn gear to contend with as well. maybe a total rebuild is in order. The bodywork and chassis seem fine so I may continue. Any information on how the motor should look would be much appreciated.

[Il Grifone]

Sorry I didn't get back earlier, but it's taken until now to locate them.

 

There are two versions. One has an open frame motor (similar to a Tri-ang X.04 Mine has lost it's brushgear so I will have to fabricate something) and the other a can motor. Both drive a paxolin (or similar) gear on the centre axle fitted with  flangeless wheels.

 

The first has a phosphor bronze strip that makes contact with the wheels on the first two axles (and possibly via the coupling rod to the rear axle - not good practise). The other has two conventional strips contacting the front and rear wheels.

I'll post pictures as soon as I can.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Il Grifone

[sagaguy]

This might be the original motor.

 

                         Ray.

[Il Grifone]

This is the Pittman motor fitted to the Formo 0-6-0* illustrated (and I assume the NYC Hudson)  The one in the 94xx I have has the commutator on the gear side of the armature windings like the X.04. IIRC the later version of the 81xx has the same motor. (The early one has the strange 2 pole affair of course.) I'll have to dig out mine (same problem as the 94xx - which box?)

 

*Interestingly the illustration shows spoked wheels, Both mine have B.F.B wheels. I've fitted one with prairie wheels in an attempt to cure jerky running (D shaped axle ends (like K's) preclude fiddling with the quartering). She now runs smoothly, but has problems with the centre wheels  touching the rails and derailing - back to the drawing board! Unfortunately the axles are a non standard (large) diameter.

 

£8 16s 11d was a lot of money in 1954 (Something like £200 today), which probably explains why there aren't many Hudsons about these days.

 

Even the 3 rail Formo track was more expensive than Dublo.  It cost less per piece. but you need twelve to make a circle rather than eight. The base is wider and the sleepers stamped out, but you get steel rail rather than nickel plated brass.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Il Grifone

[sagaguy]

Not a great pic but you can see the similarities.The Q set with Merchant navy wheels.

 

                            Ray.

 

[Il Grifone]

I forgot to mention the Formo rolling stock wheels are awful and tend to derail at the slightest opportunity. For serious use, I would recommend their replacement with Dublo*. It involves removal of the wheels from the axle and shortening the axle to fit between the axleguards, The original wheels can always be put back. Making a new wheel unit enables the  eccentric Farish coupling to be replaced with something better. Even a tension lock is better than these things.

 

I'm not sure why it was thought necessary to modify the underframe. The standard Farish wagons would have  worked perfectly well in the Formo set. Actually better, as they have quite serviceable wheels that stay on the rails.

 

*Other wheels are available.

[CKPR]

I'm fascinated by the early history of model railways in the UK, especially in the 1940s and 1950s - am I right in thinking that Formo was originally a separate company to Graham Farish in the way that Trackmaster was to Rovex  and Rovex to Tri-ang ?

[sagaguy]

No,Formo was the trading name of their 00 gauge operations.

 

                          https://www.brightontoymuseum.co.uk/index/Category:Graham_Farish

 

                  Ray.

[Il Grifone]

IIRC Formo was a one of the brand names used by Farish,  rather like Tri-ang, Rovex, Minic etc.

 

Trackmaster similarly was used by Pyramid Toys for their trains. They and Rovex were purchased by Lines Brothers and then sold under their own Tri-ang brand. The trains were officially Rovex (hence R.xx catalogue nos.), but always known as Tri-ang. The Trackmaster brand has reappeared for Thomas the Tank Engine. Farish  products were sold as 'Grafar' for a period (60s - 70s). They decided to only produce N gauge models from around 1980 and are now part of the Bachmann empire I believe.

 

I still have to locate my 81xx....

Edited March 17, 2019 by Il Grifone

[BernardTPM]

The Grafar name was quite short-lived, introduced in mid-1973*, reverting to Graham Farish in 1978.

* Earliest I've found RM advert August issue, so out in July.

[kevinlms]

On 17/03/2019 at 20:40, BernardTPM said:

The Grafar name was quite short-lived, introduced in mid-1973*, reverting to Graham Farish in 1978.

* Earliest I've found RM advert August issue, so out in July.

They were big advertisers in the Model Railway Constructor, taking the rear cover for a while.

 

The new name Grafar and the yellow/blue colour scheme appears in the May 1973 issue.

I seem to remember that the change was for a 'more modern' look.

 

I might look further later.

 

Update.

 

Found a review in 'Shopping Talk' in Model Railways for May 1973.

Covers the re-introduction of the 'Grafar' OO Pullmans and N Gauge 0-6-0T, a freelance model.

 

The April issue has similar reviews, for Graham Farish N Gauge wagons.

 

So change appears to be between April & May 1973, without explanation. Something that would NEVER occur today.

Edited March 18, 2019 by kevinlms
Updated info.

[Evanelpus]

On 13/03/2019 at 05:35, Il Grifone said:

This is the Pittman motor fitted to the Formo 0-6-0* illustrated (and I assume the NYC Hudson)  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Hudson used the same 2 pole motor that all the early locos used. Even the early Prairie had it. Can supply photos if required.

[Il Grifone]

That would have been another reason for lack of sales....

[Evanelpus]

That and the prohibitively high price.

[sagaguy]

This loco arrived today from an Ebay seller,extremly fast delivery,i only paid for it the day before.Graham Farish Cl.5 with the original two pole motor which,surprise,surpise doesn`t work although i got half a turn out of it.Further investigation & a new motor seems to be the  way to go.No corrosion or Mazak rot at all.It cost me £19.99 with free p&p so this was a bargain.It does have a tender plunger missing but having a lathe,that would be easy to make but i`d like to run it on my Dublo 3 rail layout so we`ll see what can be done.

 

                              Ray.

[Il Grifone]

I paid more than that for mine!  Well done!   I saw one at a boot sale for £50 once, but didn't indulge.

 

Once started mine will run OK, but it takes very little (for example a train) to stop it again. The rotor has a magnetic bias which is supposed to stop it in the 'start' position, but it only works sometimes.... (the drive shaft u/j not being made properly doesn't help

I thought the spare Pittman motor I have would be an ideal and appropriate replacement, but it wouldn't fit. 

An Airfix* one will fit, but I have run out of 'roundtoit'

 

*Ex 14xx or 61xx - the one with horizontal brushes.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Il Grifone

[sagaguy]

After all these years,the Farish 2 pole motor runs,it needs a tweak to get it going ,i don`t know if this was a characteristic of thse motors.I won`t be changing the motor or converting it in any way,i`ll keep it as an example of early post war railway modelling.

 

                                Ray

 

                                              

 

[Il Grifone]

It's probably running because it's not connected to anything! 

 

That's not really fair as it should be powerful. I was impressed by a Farish King pulling 2 Farish Pullmans in Gamages. My Duchess of Atholl struggled to manage one. It must have been 1952. I can remember riding on a tram and the Emmet railway.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_Tottering_and_Oyster_Creek_Branch_Railway

[sagaguy]

I have had it running a short distance on a length of Formoway track but since it has only one plunger p/up,I have to hardwire the opposite pole until the weather warms up & I can use my lathe. I'm not going to convert it but keep it as a piece of early railway modelling history. 

           Ray. 

[Il Grifone]

I was going to make a new motor assembly for mine and keep the original motor so that it can be replaced at any time. It's held by a few rivets, which can be replaced by nuts and bolts. So far I've got as far as removing the motor plate.... She did run but her performance was not impressive. It's true she was trialed on 15¾" curves (Trix), whereas Farish were intended for 2', or so I was informed. Certainly the Pullman cars will not run on Dublo track.

 

She needs new traction tyres, but I probably won't bother. They are on the centre drivers which could present problems as the frame is rigid. Hornby's SSPP 0-6-0T chassis is similar, but at least the rear axle is sprung. It does need careful adjustment to run properly. I have one that behaves herself and a second example somewhat prone to "falling from the rails". *

 

*Alleged quote from Brunel concerning the 'narrow gauge', but I doubt its authenticity.

[sagaguy]

I`ll bet this hasn`t run like this for few years,It still needs a flick to get it going though.I can`t test it on the track until i replace the missing plunger which is easy enough to make but it`s the spring that`s the main problem at the moment trying to source it,i may have to make it out of a brush spring.It`s a bit of a long video so just fast forward it.I havn`t got into video editing yet.

 

                                      Ray.