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Help needed in identifying Location -I think this is a MR signal box

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Hi,

 

Aplogies for the poor quality of this transparancy but it shws an unusual signal box on what I think to be MR metals (the mileage marker is pure MR) .  May well be around the Chesterfield area as other (distant) views confirm a 4 track main line with slag heaps and substantual sidings.

 

Can anyone help with the location please?

 

Thanks in advance,  Tony

8F 1966c where-ROS-1901-262.jpg

Edited by Rail-Online

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Can you see any more of the telegraph pole on the extreme left? i.e. was it a typical Midland two-pole type?

Certainly the milepost looks like a standard Midland one.

Could it be on the Cudworth route through Yorkshire? Plenty of coal/spoil heaps...

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The LNWR had quite a few signalboxes of that design, Mostyn for example, could the photograph be a joint MR/LNWR line, somewhere around the Liverpool area maybe?

 

Mike.

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If it's any help, the Midland mileposts were normally on the Up side of the line.

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From looking at the diagrams the top one could be Carlton North Sidings looking North. The train would be on Up Slow. The companion picture matches the next box to the north - Royston Station looking south. Both on the Cudworth route.

 

Cannot find any pictures of the box to confirm - maybe someone else will have more luck!

 

 

Rob

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8 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

The LNWR had quite a few signalboxes of that design, Mostyn for example, could the photograph be a joint MR/LNWR line, somewhere around the Liverpool area maybe?

 

Mike.

 

Mike - It's a Midland box with an extension piece, probably for observing shunting moves.

 

The look of the houses fits in with those in the Cudworth area as suggested

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10 hours ago, 30851 said:

From looking at the diagrams the top one could be Carlton North Sidings looking North. The train would be on Up Slow. The companion picture matches the next box to the north - Royston Station looking south. Both on the Cudworth route.

 

Cannot find any pictures of the box to confirm - maybe someone else will have more luck!

 

 

Rob

 

I'e found a photo in Railway Memories No.8 (page 26) which confirms the location as Carlton North Sidings as Rob says

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Google streetview showing the houses in both photos: https://goo.gl/maps/ZQRenADVtjm

 

I can't find any photos of the box either.

Pretty sure the box is in the background here (google books link to Rails through Barnsley: A Photographic History, by Alan Whitehouse - p20 lower) 

 

Edited by eastwestdivide
another photo
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Looks like our help in identifying the location isn't appreciated ... I've watched the OP come and go several times and no comment.

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On 11/03/2019 at 16:22, beast66606 said:

Looks like our help in identifying the location isn't appreciated ... I've watched the OP come and go several times and no comment.

That is wierd, I wrote a thanks note but for some reason it did not 'go live' and appear.  Just 'released' it now, I suppose I am just getting used to the new system.............

 

Yes it really is appreciated and I did add a thanks note on my other site

 

Cheers Tony

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It is Carlton North Sidings Box. I have 4 booking on books 3 from 1962 and 1 from 1966. It is in its rebuilt form and had a German signal frame in. 

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1 hour ago, enginelane said:

It is in its rebuilt form and had a German signal frame in. 

 

That requires a little more explanation!

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On 08/03/2019 at 23:43, beast66606 said:

 

Mike - It's a Midland box with an extension piece, probably for observing shunting moves.

 

The look of the houses fits in with those in the Cudworth area as suggested

I think that is a Midland box with a narrow base rather than an extension, there were quite a lot similar.

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That requires a little more explanation!

The Midland/LMS did install some double wire operated points and these used a frame with turnover levers, ie the levers rotate through 180 degrees. The frames were homemade, not imported from Germany but followed a design concept pretty well standard for mechanical signalling in Germany.

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1 minute ago, Grovenor said:

The Midland/LMS did install some double wire operated points and these used a frame with turnover levers, ie the levers rotate through 180 degrees. The frames were homemade, not imported from Germany but followed a design concept pretty well standard for mechanical signalling in Germany.

 

Aha. I had come across pictures of Midland boxes with such frames but did not know their origin.

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Yes I did have at one time an article that the NRM archive section sourced -it was  in German so kind of stopped then 

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On 21/07/2020 at 22:08, Compound2632 said:

 

Aha. I had come across pictures of Midland boxes with such frames but did not know their origin.

They didn't all come from Germany - one on the GWR was manufactured by Westinghouse and was tappet interlocked, using standard GWR locking, with the ordinary lever frame it stood at the end of.

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47 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

They didn't all come from Germany - one on the GWR was manufactured by Westinghouse and was tappet interlocked, using standard GWR locking, with the ordinary lever frame it stood at the end of.

 

I think @enginelane meant it was German in concept, not by manufacture. The whole topic of Midland signalling equipment (as distinct from signal boxes) seems to be crying out for more research. It seem clear that the Midland was manufacturing quite a bit of equipment for itself but I wouldn't be surprised if less exclusively so than, say, the LNWR.

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Posted (edited)

The Midland built their own boxes and built their wn frames which were developed into the standard LMS frame. Very little was bought in. Crewe was still building Midland style LMS frames into the 60s.If not later.

And when I was there still had a section of double wire frame available in the shop in case of urgent need.

Edited by Grovenor
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1 hour ago, Grovenor said:

The Midland built their own boxes and built their wn frames which were developed into the standard LMS frame. Very little was bought in. Crewe was still building Midland style LMS frames into the 60s.If not later.

And when I was there still had a section of double wire frame available in the shop in case of urgent need.

 

The definitive book on Midland signalling has yet to be written, allegedly for lack of anyone with both the time and knowledge to take on the task...

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Sandy had a set of wire operated points (1920's) The gear for them is now in the NRM as I understand they were the longest (distance) wire operated in the country. A couple of signal men said that if it didn't work first time you would have to have the points checked due to stretching of the wire.

916210771_wireoperatedpointleversnowinNRMsandysouthbox.jpg.4baae66189d55e890b6e44aafd4ef16c.jpg

wire_operated_points_2.jpg.0d6943977876ef46f404e3cb193997fb.jpg

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The LMS also had a double wire frame at Rowsley at one time.  This was stated by one source to be the earliest LMS attempt at such a frame and didn't have any interlocking!  Photo here -

 

http://dominic-beglin.magix.net/website/before_closure_1.10.html#BEFORE CLOSURE 1

 

You'll find more about LMS double wire frames etc here -

 

http://www.derby-signalling.org.uk/CottageLane.htm

 

And here (hopefully) is something a bit more up-to-date -

 

http://dominic-beglin.magix.net/website/#LATEST PROJECTS NEWS

 

Double wire in Aus -

 

http://www.vrhistory.com/Articles/DoubleWire/DoubleWire.htm

 

I can't find any photos of the 1935 GWR installation at Johnston but it, unusually, had a Westinghouse A2 frame with, oroiginally 6 working double wire levers (later increased to 8. leaving one spare) within the length of the normal style frame and fully interlocked with it.

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On 24/07/2020 at 16:21, Compound2632 said:

 

I think @enginelane meant it was German in concept, not by manufacture. The whole topic of Midland signalling equipment (as distinct from signal boxes) seems to be crying out for more research. It seem clear that the Midland was manufacturing quite a bit of equipment for itself but I wouldn't be surprised if less exclusively so than, say, the LNWR.


 

i had another look for the article but it’s gone. If I remember it was from a technical paper and no idea what it said! Never found out what happened to the first box 

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