Thomas Powell, G.&J. Rennie engine Llantwit, and the Taff Vale Railway

[Dana Ashdown]

Hello! I’m hoping someone with an interest in early Taff Vale locomotives can help me.

 

In the spring or early summer of 1845, Thomas Powell, colliery owner and director of the Taff Vale Railway, purchased one (or probably two) locomotives from the London & Croydon Railway. These were No.2 Croydon and No.6 Archimedes — 2-2-2 types completed by G.&J. Rennie in May 1838 and April 1839, respectively. They had 13x18-inch inside-connected cylinders and 5-foot 6-inch drivers. (Croydon & Archimedes Table.pdf)

 

I presume that Powell bought the engines for use around his own works, but he subsequently sold one to the Taff Vale, by which time it was renamed Llantwit — Powell paid for a branch line between his Llantwit colliery and the Taff Vale at Merthyr Mawr, opened 25 April 1844. Croydon and Archimedes appear to have been very similar to the Taff Vale’s first pair of engines from Sharp, Roberts & Company, so this may have been the attraction.

 

(The Taff Vale also purchased two Norris-types from the Birmingham & Gloucester Railway in September/October 1845. The Aberdare bought one as well, in January 1846.)

 

The Taff Vale connection is noted in James W. Lowe’s British Steam Locomotive Builders under G.&J. Rennie; and also in D.S.M.Barrie’s The Taff Vale Railway. Unfortunately, both sources are short on details; and the only official Taff Vale listing I have for the period dates from 1841, and does not list engines by name.

 

Consequently, I have three questions:

 

1) Can anyone confirm Powell’s purchases in 1845, and subsequent resale to the Taff Vale Railway?

 

2) What dimensions were reported by the railway?

 

3) How long did it/they stay in operation?

 

I have no access to any Welsh railway material here in Canada, so any help or ideas will be gratefully received.

 

 

Dana

 

 

(On a matter of curiosity: In 1835 Sir John Guest, Lewis & Company bought Liverpool & Manchester Railway Planet-type No.20 Ætna for £250. I take it that the engine was put to work on the company’s tram roads around the Dowlais Iron Works. Could someone possibly tell me if this was so, and how long the engine lasted in the company’s service? I know that in 1848 the Dowlais Iron Works employed six standard gauge engines, but I have no details.)

Edited March 9, 2019 by Dana Ashdown

[corneliuslundie]

I am afraid that I cannot help. Neither RCTS Part 12 or a recent article in the HMRS Journal on early TVR locomotives mentions these.

If you get no response to your enquiry I suggest that you send a short item to the Editor of the Welsh Railways Research Circle Newsletter at newsletter@wrrc.org.uk

In view of the London & Croydon connection you might also ask the Brighton Circle.

And when you do get the answer in full, how about an article for the WRRC journal?

Jonathan

[BMS]

Locos GWR Part 10 has a likely candidate on Page K139; Llantwit acquired from Thomas Powell in 1845; In September he offered the loco to balance wagon hire. 12"X18" cylinders built 1838. By 1855 it was a 6 wheel 0-4-2 with 4ft 6in wheels. In early 1850s recorded working at Llancaiach and RCTS suggest it was used as a wagon shunter and pw. Built by G & J Rennie. 

 

This seems to be the only 2-2-2 the TVR had; they favoured 0-4-2.

The above summarises the RCTS Pt10 entry.

 

Dates at this range seem to me to be capable of being misunderstood.

 

The 3 Yankee Engines from Norris can be represented by the American Bachmann ones albeit HO rather than OO.

 

Some more work to be done with the L&C info , I think

Regards

Basil Stephens

WRRC

[corneliuslundie]

Well done. I had read that section and the penny had not dropped - wrong names - I had forgotten to check against Llantwit in the list of TVR locos I recently compiled - and wrong wheel arrangement. It's been a long day.

There is a drawing of the Norris design in the Mountford and Kidner book on the Aberdare Railway - also in the HMRS Journal article mentioned above.

Jonathan

[Oldddudders]

Burtt - ‘The Locomotives of the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway’ 1903, reprinted 1975 - gives the driving wheel diameter of Nos 2 & 6 as 5 foot, not 5’6”. 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Oldddudders

[corneliuslundie]

Burtt should be reliable. He worked in the Brighton drawing office, as well as being a photographer. Thought of course it was well before his time.

Jonathan

[Dana Ashdown]

Thanks everyone!

 

Jonathan: I sent an e-mail to the WRRC a few weeks ago, but I haven't heard anything back yet. But I'll try the Brighton Circle, just in case someone has found something there. I don't know about an article, but I'll let you know if I discover anything more than Basil has turned up.

 

Basil: That's it. If Llantwit was built in 1838, it must have been L&C No.2 Croydon. So I'm very happy to have this confirmed! Or should I say extremely happy!!! The engines originally had 13"x18" cylinders, but these could have been changed during the later rebuilding.

 

Ian: The dimensions for Croydon and Archimedes are according to Whishaw (1840) and a parliamentary report (1841), so probably the most accurate available, at least to the 1840/1 period.

 

My chief reason for asking about Llantwit and Powell relates to work I'm doing on the locomotive engines fitted to Sir John Franklin's Arctic exploration ships Erebus and Terror. Past wisdom had it that Erebus' engine was formerly London & Greenwich Railway No.4 (Twells); and that Terror's probably came from the London & Birmingham Railway's stock of ballast engines. However, about ten years ago a new theory emerged that the two engines were actually Croydon and Archimedes from the London & Croydon. I won't go into the details about the theory, except that it was built upon a lot of skimpy evidence and the fact that the two engines appear to have disappeared at around the same time as the ships were being outfitted. A lot of people who should have known better bought into this theory, but I think we can now return to reality!

 

(By the way, the Midland Journal, Supplement No.1, covering the American locomotives, has dimensions and drawings of the Norris engines on the Birmingham & Gloucester.)

 

Thanks again!

 

Dana

[Dana Ashdown]

Hello again.

 

By way of addition and correction regarding the Norris engines, there’s Loco Profile 11, The Norris Locomotives, by Brian Reed, dating from 1971. More recently, David Hunt has written about the Birmingham & Gloucester’s Norris engines in chapter one of American Locomotives of the Midland Railway (Midland Record, No.1 Supplement, White Swan Publications, 1997, pages 2-14). Both only mention the sales to the Taff Vale and Aberdare, but there are diagrams and enough information to alter the Bachmann Norris engines accordingly. Maybe John Bull could be adapted for something as well. A layout would have to be HO gauge which shouldn’t be a problem since you would have to build most of the rolling stock yourself anyway.

 

For anyone interested, these are from the 1841 Railway Department’s report:

1. ACCOUNTS_AND_PAPERS, Report of the Officers of the Railway Department, 1842, ref..pdf2. ACCOUNTS_AND_PAPERS, Report of the Officers of the Railway Department, 1842.pdf3. Taff Vale Railway, April 1841 - ACCOUNTS_AND_PAPERS, Report of the Officers of the Railway Department, 1842.pdf4. Taff Vale Railway engines, April 1841 - ACCOUNTS_AND_PAPERS, Report of the Officers of the Railway Department, 1842.pdf

 

 

The full report is available from Google.

 

Google also has the Gauge Commission Report from 1845, with material on the Taff Vale. I've run out of capacity for downloads here, but this is the title page:

 

5. Report_of_the_Gauge_Commissioners_with_M - title page.pdf

 

Dana

 

Edited March 16, 2019 by Dana Ashdown

[BMS]

Just to say thanks for that extra info - a trail to be followed (:-))

Basil

[Dana Ashdown]

By way of another update on the London & Croydon’s engine Croydon on the Taff Vale, I have been in contact with the Brighton Circle about the sale to Thomas Powell.

 

Chris Cox replied: “The relevant extracts from the London & Croydon Railway Minutes held at the National Archives were published by Geoff Smith in the Brighton Circular Vol.44 No.1, Spring 2018. These cover the purchase and disposal of Croydon and Archimedes although it does not answer your question.”

 

As Chris doesn’t have a scanner, I haven’t actually seen the article myself, but am hoping to get a scan soon. Consequently, I cannot add anything more at the moment on that score, beyond that the London & Croydon seems not to have recorded the actual purchaser(s) of the engine(s).

 

A list of Taff Vale locomotives from the period 1846-1850 would be useful here. The closest I have found is from late 1844 when there were ten engines inventoried, so just a year too early to be of use.

 

A contemporary list should confirm what Basil has noted from The Locomotives of the Great Western Railway: Part 10, Absorbed Engines, 1922-1947, page K139. However, that entry says Llantwit had 12”x18” cylinders, whereby Croydon and Archimedes had 13”x18” cylinders. The Taff Vale’s two Sharp, Roberts 2-2-2s had 13”x18” cylinders, and were of similar weight to Croydon and Archimedes.

 

An index to the Sessional Papers of the House of Lords lists from 1846 a “Return of the Working Stock (Engines, Carriages, and Waggons) belonging to Railway Companies at present in operation. (213.)” (1846, Volume XIII, page 333). This might give a clue, but it is not available online so far as I can see.

 

Much as I believe that Croydon, (and I think Archimedes as well) was purchased by Powell, there are still those who doubt, so it would be nice to clear this matter up one way or another. A the moment about the only way to do this is through the Taff Vale’s records.

 

Dana

[corneliuslundie]

Some months ago i compiled a tabular listing of TVR locomotives from available sources, but mainly I have to admit RCTS Part 10. Attached is the section  covering the period up to 1850 but I am afraid that it probably does not add anything to what is already known, except to give a list of the other locomotives acquired by the TVR during that period. The Aberdare Railway locomotives are not shown as the company had not yet been absorbed.

It may not be at all relevant but Thomas Powell also acquired an early locomotive from the Monmouthshire Railway - though a completely different design. the attached is from a manuscript in the HMRS Archives written by Edward Craven, which will eventually be published in the HMRS Journal. Powell was an important industrialist at the time.

Jonathan

TVR locomotives up to 1850.doc Monmouthshire Railway No 1.doc

[Dana Ashdown]

Thanks Jonathan!

 

That's very useful. (I was amused by "Yankees" as a class designation for the Norris engines!)

 

The more we look, the more we find.

 

Dana

[Dana Ashdown]

Eric Gates (Burgundy) has kindly provided me with scans of two articles from The Brighton Circular that trace the history of Croydon and Archimedes:

 

Clive Croome, ‘The London and Croydon Railway Engines “Croydon” and “Archimedes”’, The Brighton Circular, Volume 44, Number 1, Spring 2018, pages 180-6

 

Geoff Smith, ‘Feedback — Croydon and Archimedes — Vol 42 No 4 p182,’ The Brighton Circular, Volume 42, Number 4, Winter 2016, pages 6-9

 

These were inspired by an earlier question by Chris Cox and outline the known history of Croydon and Archimedes using reliable published sources (mainly D.L. Bradley, Locomotives of the South Eastern Railway; Francis Whishaw, Railways of Great Britain and Ireland, 1842); the London & Croydon Railway Minute Books at Kew (RAIL. 388/2 to /6); and the list from the Meeting of the Brighton, Croydon and Dover Locomotive Committee held on 12 April 1845 (RAIL. 386/37).

 

The following summary touches on all the pertinent details:

 

The relationship between George & John Rennie and the London & Croydon Railway began as early as July 1837 when the railway tendered for locomotives, and consulted with the firm on the types pf engine needed. Towards the end of August the Board of Directors indicated their desire to contract for two locomotives, providing that they were “made as duplicates of some well-known and approved engines now at work.” Days after the request was made the railway’s engineer, George Gibbs, discovered that the two engines at the factory had been “condemned” and the Board asked Gibbs to investigate before negotiating further. Consequently, no orders were given to the Rennie factory until 16 July 1838 when Gibbs, recommended that the Board purchase two engines offered at £1625 each, including tenders — one to be delivered in three weeks and the other in four months.

 

The first, No.2 Croydon, arrived on 6 August 1838, but broke done before the month was over and was sent to Braithwaite, Milner & Company, New Cross, London, for repair. It was again out of commission by January 1840, when the Board ordered that the Rennie brothers “be furnished with a specification of the parts required for repair of the Croydon engine recommended by the Engineer (Joshua Richardson) to be supplied by them & another specification containing a detail of all the repairs stated by his report to be necessary & that they be requested to make separate tenders for each, distinguishing in the latter the cost of removal of the Engine to & from the Station.”

 

The second, No.6 Archimedes was delivered on 14 May 1839, but was declared “very much out of repair” by September. In November Joshua Richardson, the railway’s engineer, reported that the engine “was very much out of repair,” and the Board instructed him to have the necessary repairs done. Two weeks later and little had changed, except that Richardson told the Board that Archimedes “has already cost more than any other Engine on the line.” Its was therefore ordered that G.&J. Rennie be informed of the situation “& requested to send a man to inspect the Engine before any further repairs are commenced.”  Whether it was repaired at that time is not clear, but at the end of January 1840 the Board asked Braithwaite (probably Frederick Braithwaite who was operating the factory) to inspect Archimedes and report “as to the original soundness of its construction as far as he is able to form a judgement from its present condition, considering the time it has been in use.”

 

The problems with Croydon and Archimedes seem to have been rectified as no other troubles were reported in 1840. However, in February 1841 Archimedes was delayed after a lead plug came out of the boiler. The driver was initially blamed for letting the water run too low in the boiler, but an inspection revealed that the plug hole was improperly formed. In January 1842 Croydon broke her crank axle, but the engine was not in service and the steam was off so no further damage occurred. (The diameter of the crank axles on Croydon and Archimedes were 3/4-inch smaller than those built for the railway by Sharp, Roberts & Company.)

 

In March 1842 the London & Croydon, London & Brighton, and South Eastern railways formed a Joint Locomotive Committee by which they agreed to pool their respective locomotives. Consequently, Croydon and Archimedes would have been available for use by all three railways, as and when required. In June 1842 Archimedes was modified to burn coal, but the experiment ended in November. Neither engine is mentioned further in the Joint Committee’s records until April 1845.

 

The locomotive pool lasted until the winter of 1845 when it was decided to dissolve the Committee. Croydon and Archimedes were out of use by this point. In April 1845 the three companies met to disperse the stock; the South Eastern’s selection was included in a list dated 12 April, and included Croydon and Archimedes. However, the engines were listed as “part sold” with a valuation of only £355 each — precisely what was meant by “part sold” remains a mystery.

 

As Chris Cox told me earlier, the records don’t say what happened to the engines after April 1845. Bradley says the engines were taken over by the South Eastern and immediately sold, probably as scrap. If this was the case, one has to wonder why they would pay £355 a piece for them. Peter Carney theorises that the boiler/cylinder assemblies were previously sold to Maudslay, to be adapted for use in Erebus and Terror, and the “part sold” indicates this. Nevertheless, there is nothing in the historical record linking Croydon and Archimedes with Erebus and Terror.

 

Knowing that Thomas Powell may have purchased Croydon, and perhaps Archimedes too (given the equal evaluations), it is conceivable that Powell only bought the engines, and the £355 represents the value of the tenders which might have been of use to the South Eastern. The difference between the original price paid and this final valuation is £1270, though it is doubtful that either engine could have commanded such a sum in 1845. Two other engines selected by the South Eastern were No.5 London, valued at £990; and No.7 Hercules, at £1200. Both these engines were by Sharp, Roberts & Company, the former a 2-2-2 and the latter an 0-4-2 to a Stephenson plan.

 

Clive Croome also mentions Rennie’s request to try two  engines on the London & Birmingham, as noted in Harry Jack’s Locomotives of the LNWR’s Southern Division (RCTS, 2001). The full passage from page 74 of the book is as follows:

 

'On 3rd October 1837 G. & J. Rennie of Blackfriars, London, asked for a trial of two engines on the L&B. One engine, “Rennie’s experimental engine, the Victoria” certainly arrived and was probably put to work by the contractors. On 21st October it collided with three wagons loaded with rails at Tring, whereupon Messrs Rennie were asked to remove it.'

 

These two engines might have been the condemned engines noted earlier. According to the list in Francis Whishaw’s book, the LSWR, successor to the London & Southampton, had an engine named Victoria, delivered from Rennie in 1838. The L&S apparently purchased five engines from Rennie (Deer, Garnet, London, Victoria and Reed), all delivered in 1838, but Whishaw shows only four, Deer being missing. Since all of the L&S/LSWR’s engines from Rennie had to be completely rebuilt by William Fairbairn around 1841, it is probably that Deer was the first to be rebuilt.

 

Edward Craven’s article on Monmouthsire Railway No.1, posted above by Jonathan, certainly demonstrates Powell’s willingness to take a chance on second-hand engines if the price was right.

 

Dana

Edited April 17, 2019 by Dana Ashdown
Italics

[Dana Ashdown]

I sent an enquiry to the Parliamentary Archives at Westminster about the Taff Vale entry in “Return of the Working Stock (Engines, Carriages, and Waggons) belonging to Railway Companies at present in operation. (213.)” (1846, Volume XIII, page 333). Simon Gough, the archives officer, was kind enough locate it and send the entry, as follows:

 

Taff Vale Railway

Cardiff 18th May 1846

Sir,

In reply to your Circular of the 16th instant, the Working Stock of the Company now consists of

12 Locomotive Engines.

23 Passenger Carriages:-

First. 2

First and Second. 3

Second. 10

Third. 8

250 Coal Wagons

78 other Wagons

 

I am, &c., Edward Kenway, Secretary.

 

D. O’Brien Esq.

 

At this point, the twelve locomotives include Llantwit and two others from the Birmingham & Gloucester, namely Moorsom and Columbia.

 

Dana

 

[Dana Ashdown]

Time for an update.

 

Thanks to a number of people here on RMWeb, I've more or less finished that part of my research on the source(s) of the engines fitted to Erebus and Terror, and have concluded that London & Greenwich and London & Birmingham engines were used in the respective ships. On this Peter Carney and I have agreed to disagree. However, I've attached a copy of the section on finding the engines for anyone interested.

 

I still believe that the two London & Croydon engines that Peter champions wound up in Wales, courtesy of Thomas Powell, but I will leave any further search in that area to those better situated.

 

Comments always welcome.

 

Dana

 

 

1 - Dana Ashdown, Engines for Erebus and Terror v.2, Finding the Engines.pdf

[Dana Ashdown]

Hello again everyone!

 

As a result of further enquiries, I can now state that the Rennie engine acquired by Thomas Powell did not come from the London & Croydon Railway, but may actually have been purchased new from the factory in 1842.

 

The entry in James W. Lowe’s British Steam Locomotive Builders, pages 545-6, for G.&J. Rennie shows that the factory produced sixteen locomotives in all, including two exported to Germany. English railways took the rest: the London & Southampton bought five; the London & Croydon, two; London & Brighton, three; the Great Western, two; and the Joint Committee of the London & Croydon and South Eastern railways, two. Lowe also related that the two London & Croydon engines (erroneously identified as 0-4-2 types) were sold in 1845, one of which went to Thomas Powell, which in turn was sold to the Taff Vale Railway as Llantwit.

 

Given Peter Carney’s proposition that the railway engines fitted to Erebus and Terror were Croydon and Archimedes, and that Lowe listed that they had been sold in 1845 — including one to Powell — I considered that this, along with a number other factors, raised serious doubts about any connection between the London & Croydon and the two ships. As Thomas Powell was a major Welsh colliery owner and investor in the Taff Vale Railway, I concluded that Powell acquired either Croydon or Archimedes, or both, earlier in 1845 to work his tramroad opened in late 1843 between his colliery at Llantwit Fadre to the Glamorganshire Canal, and which was connected to the Taff Vale on 25 April 1844 (The Railway Chronicle, London, Saturday 4 May 1844, page 69).

 

Further evidence supplied by Basil Stephens of the Welsh Railway Research Circle, extracted from The Locomotives of the Great Western Railway: Part 10, Absorbed Engines, 1922-1947 (The Railway Correspondence and Travel Society, 1966, page K139), indicated that Powell did indeed own a Rennie-built engine named Llantwit, which was sold to to the Taff Vale Railway in 1845. Llantwit had 12 x 18-inch cylinders, unlike Croydon and Archimedes, which were larger, at 13 x 18 inches. As this discrepancy might be explained by a later rebuilding (by 1855 it was an 0-4-2 with 4ft. 6in. drivers), I accepted that Llantwit was most likely one of the two London & Croydon engines.

 

As there was still uncertainty about Llantwit’s origins, I continued looking. Recently I decided to contact the Early Railways Group of the Railway & Canal Historical Society for help. Through their co-ordinator Andy Guy, Stephen Rowson provided this extract from Colin Chapman’s Oakwood Press book The Llantisant Branches of the Taff Vale Railway, page 117:

 

“Traffic over Thomas Powell’s Lantwit Vardre Railway was worked by horses, apart from a short period when a locomotive was used. About May 1842 Powell acquired an engine which he hoped to use over the TVR, and on 30th June, 1842 he sought the permission of its Directors to do so. His request was met with outright opposition, the Board being of the opinion ‘that it would be highly dangerous and inexpedient for other parties than the Company to work engines on the road.’ Powell then made use of his engine, appropriately named Llantwit, on his Lantwit Vardre Railway for a time before reverting to horse power. In June 1844 the TVR agreed to Powell’s application for the hire of wagons to bring down coal from Dihewyd Colliery. A further request for 50 wagons was made the following September, Powell offering the TVR the use of Llantwit in return. This arrangement was followed, in December 1845, by the outright purchase by the TVR of Llantwit for £580. Llantwit was of [G.]. & J. Rennie’s build with 12 in. by 18 in. cylinders, suggesting an engine of 1838 vintage. Surviving TVR records describe Llantwit as a six-wheeled four coupled locomotive with 4 ft. 6 in. diameter driving wheels, and it would appear that she spent most of her days in TVR ownership working coal traffic on the company’s Llancaiach branch. Llantwit was condemned in 1858.”

 

Obviously, Llantwit could not have come from the London & Croydon if Powell acquired it in May 1842!

 

Upon further investigation I found a reference to Powell’s locomotive in The Railway Times of Saturday 27 August 1842 (No.243, Vol. V, No.35, pages 279-880), in regards to the general half-yearly meeting of the Taff Vale Railway shareholders. During the meeting Mr. Green, speaking for Powell (who was deaf), stated that “Mr. Powell had gone to a large expense in the building of wagons… Mr. Powell had also purchased a locomotive for the purpose of conveying his own coal, but he was not allowed to use it on the line now.”

 

Later in the meeting we read:

 

“Mr. Price then adverted to the subject of Mr. Powell’s locomotive, and contended that it would not be safe on a single line. Many persons would not like to travel where the locomotives did not act harmoniously.

 

“Mr. Powell intimated that he only wished to travel on the line at night.

 

“To this it was replied, that it would be incompatible with the arrangements which the Directors had made for the working of the line, and the safety of the public.”

 

At the next Taff Vale meeting, held in February 1843, The Railway Times of Saturday 4 March 1843 (No.270, Vol. VI, No.9, Part II, pages 292-3), wrote the chairman, responding to a comment regarding Powell shipping coal on the railway, said “no doubt when Mr. Powell found it to be for his interest he would come on the road. He was quite disposed to meet Mr. Powell in a spirit of fairness, but it was impossible to let Mr. Powell’s engines come on the line.” Whether “engines” meant that Powell owned more than one locomotive at this time is doubtful, because the other comments only refer to one engine.

 

An “amicable” agreement between Powell and the company was reached by April, when Powell resumed shipping his coal by the railway rather than the Glamorganshire Canal (The Railway Times, Saturday 15 April 1843, No.276, Vol. VI, No.15, pages 247-8).

 

Regarding the Taff Vale’s “safe” and “harmonious” working of the line, the explanation may be found in the report of Inspector-General of Railways Lt.-Col. Frederic Smith’s report from 20 April 1841 (Report of the Officers of the Railway Department, 1842), pending the public opening of the railway:

 

“The trains will pass each other on the double line on the incline plane, and will be taken forward to their respective destinations by the engines which will have brought the other trains to the plane.

 

“According to this system, no collision can result from there being only a single line, as there will be a three-hours’ interval between the first and second, and four hours between the second and third last trains.

 

The mineral traffic will, I understand, be kept clear of the passenger-trains by starting generally after the last train in the afternoon.

 

“With these precautions and arrangements I trust that this line may be worked with safety.”

 

Companies like the Liverpool & Manchester permitted private trains, so Powell’s expectations were not unjustified. But as a single line of railway, the Taff Vale was unwilling to risk collisions by allowing private trains to operate in an ad hoc manner along its road. And it would seem that mineral trains only operated late in the day and into the night. (At this time, the railway only had three engines.)

 

If Thomas Powell did purchase a Rennie engine early in 1842, where did it come from? The answer may be from the Rennie factory. In March 1842 G.&J. advertised locomotives for sale (The Railway Times, Saturday 5 March 1842, No.218, Vol. V, No.10, Part I, page 272; and Saturday 19 March 1842, No.220, Volume V, No.12, page 342), being:

 

“THREE LOCOMOTIVE ENGINES and TENDERS. Cylinders 12 inches diameter; length of stroke 18 inches; diameter of driving-wheel 5 feet, adapted to the usual gauge. These Engines are most substantially made, highly finished, and will be sold considerably under the usual price.”

 

It is known that two engines were later sold by Rennie to the Joint Committee of the South Eastern and London & Croydon railways:

 

i) Joint Committee No.27, Man of Kent, 2-2-2, delivered December 1842; to SER No.27, 12 April 1845; withdrawn January 1861.

 

ii) Joint Committee No.28, Kentish Man, 2-2-2, delivered February 1843; to L&B No.28, 12 April 1845; to LB&SCR No.16, October 1846; to LB&SCR No.11, 1848; withdrawn June 1855.

 

I don’t know if these two engines matched the specifications in the Rennie advertisement, but D.L. Bradley’s Locomotives of the South Eastern Railway (RC&TS,1963) and Locomotives of the London, Brighton & South Coast Railway, Part 1 (RC&TS, 1969), might be able to shed some further light on the specifications of these two engines.

 

If Powell’s engine and the two acquired by the Joint Committee are the same three as advertised in March 1842, they may be identical, and so the specifications for one should be matched by the others. Moreover, it means that the Rennie factory built seventeen locomotives, not sixteen as numerated by Lowe.

 

So far as Erebus and Terror are concerned, the evidence is still against the London & Croydon engines Croydon and Archimedes. This does, however, reopen the question about how and why Croydon and Archimedes were disposed of in 1845. They apparently passed briefly to the South Eastern Railway, or at least part of them did. But there is no tangible proof that they were ever adapted for Franklin’s expedition.

 

I've attached a revised version of the section of manuscript dealing with finding engines for Erebus and Terror.

 

Dana

Dana Ashdown, Engines for Erebus and Terror, Finding the Engines (rev. 2021.07.30).pdf

 

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Dana Ashdown
Typo: TVR paid £580, not £850 for Llantwit.

[Dana Ashdown]

With Jonathan's (Corneliuslundie) help, I've finished my look at Llantwit. (See attached PDF.)

 

My comments regarding Kentish Man and Man of Kent in the previous post should now be disregarded! They had larger cylinders than Llantwit and the other two engines Rennie advertised in 1842. 

 

DanaThomas Powell, Llantwit, and the Taff Vale Railway.pdf

[Dana Ashdown]

Since writing "Thomas Powell, Llantwit, and the Taff Vale Railway" in 2021, new information has come to light regarding Llantwit and the other two engines.

 

First, although the three engines were advertised for sale in March and April 1842, they were not actually sold at that time. Apparently there were no takers, and the Rennie’s were forced to put them up for auction on Friday 20 May 1842, as three separate lots. This must have been when Thomas Powell acquired Llantwit.

 

What happened to the other two is unclear. However, about a year later R.K. Davis, the original auctioneer, offered two “nearly new” engines “after the pattern of those in use on the London and Birmingham Railway,” to be sold at auction (“unless previously disposed of by private contract”) on Friday 9 June 1843 at No.55 Arch of the London & Greenwich Railway, Crucifix Lane, Bermondsey — in other words, just east of London Bridge Station. The wording in the advertisement is very similar to Davis’ previous notices, only the Rennies are not mentioned by name and the driving wheels are 5 feet 6 inches in diameter, not 5 feet.

 

As the pair were being peremptorily sold “to close an account with a Public Company,” it looks like they might have belonged to one of the railways running into London Bridge Station. R.H.G. Thomas briefly notes the sale in his book on the London & Greenwich, but says that they did not belong to the Greenwich. This leaves either the London & Croydon Railway, the London & Brighton Railway, or the South Eastern Railway, as possible owner; or their Joint Locomotive Committee (established in March 1842; the Brighton joined it in 1844). Unfortunately, I don’t have any way of checking this, and if they were ever mentioned by Bradley in his locomotive histories of those lines, I’ve never seen any mention of it made elsewhere.

 

The question is: Are these last two engines from the same group put up for sale by the Rennies in 1842, but with enlarged driving wheels; or are they completely different? As I note below, there was insufficient clearance between the drivers to allow any increase in the diameter of the drivers, unless Davis was mistaken when he listed the drivers at 5 feet 6 inches.

 

Second, I now believe that Llantwit was an 0-4-2 from the start, and that the drawings that appeared in S.C. Brees’ Railway Practice, Second Series (John Williams, London, 1840) purportedly depicting the London & Croydon’s Croydon and Archimedes do in fact represent the engines put up for auction in 1842. (Only the description and specifications that accompanied the drawings match Croydon and Archimedes.)

 

 

As this elevation from Brees shows, these engines were quite chunky, and the reference to the London & Birmingham Railway is on account of the inside frames for the driving wheels, and perhaps also to the circular firebox. One point worth mentioning is that the rear driver is flangeless, like Stephenson’s Patentees. Moreover, there is very little clearance between the front and rear driving wheels, so increasing the diameter of each wheel by six inches would be impossible.

 

Chris Cox of 5&9 Models (http://www.5and9models.co.uk) made a model of the Rennie 0-4-2 several years ago, shown below. It featured in The L.B.&S.C.R. Digest, Issue 7, Summer 2018, pages 39-45 (http://www.lbscr.org/Models/Digest/LBSCR-Modellers-Digest-7.pdf). This may well be as close to Llantwit’s actual appearance as we will ever find.

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Dana Ashdown