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GWR Autocoach colour schemes


rynd2it
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The more research I do into this the more confused I am getting. All the photos I can find of autocoaches in brown/cream livery show them as having a grey roof. All the RTR models seem to have a white roof.

I have been told they were white out of the factory but went grey very quickly due to chemical in the loco exhaust.

Anyone have a definitive answer and source of information?

Thanks

David

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The GW started painting roofs grey during the war, as the white stood out as very visible to enemy aircraft, and AFAIK never reverted to white afterwards.  Soot and grime made them more matt black than grey!  

 

I don't like white roofs on models, even when they are prototypically correct.  Luckily for me I model the 50s when there weren't many!  The prevalence of strong overhead lighting on layouts make them stand out excessively; they hurt my beautiful eyes!  That said, I have a memory of a family holiday to Lido de Jesolo in '64 which included a view from the hills above Trieste of the Orient Express snaking it's way between the cliffs and the blue Adriatic, spotless roofs gleaming in the sun; spectacular!

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5 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Yep, that's about it. (But not so much chemicals per se, more general soot and grime.)

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveries.html

 

Soot, grime and a generally sulphurous atmosphere. White lead oxide, which was a significant constituent of the paint used to seal the roof canvas, didn't stay white for long.

 

And, as The Johnster put it, the last place for an outbreak of pristine white roofs is on a model railway layout, where the view is almost always downwards. It couldn't shout "model railway" any older if it tried.

 

Jim

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Thank you all for your help, this has cleared it up for me and I'll be painting mine with a grey roof. I'm currently torn between immediate pre-war or post-war for period so its either GWR or BR early.

 

Cheers

 

David

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A great place to see carriage roofs naturally changing colour is watching heritage railway webcams.

 

You would be surprised how quickly a newly outshopped carriage deteriorates.

 

http://www.wsr.org.uk/

 

http://www.wsr.org.uk/r-cam-wn2.htm

 

As an example these roofs were painted not long ago. Already starting to show a bit of wear.

 

2019-03-11.png.8d5a40c28d53b200ff60c1941a6aa14f.png

 

 

Jason

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4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

A great place to see carriage roofs naturally changing colour is watching heritage railway webcams.

 

You would be surprised how quickly a newly outshopped carriage deteriorates.

 

http://www.wsr.org.uk/

 

http://www.wsr.org.uk/r-cam-wn2.htm

 

As an example these roofs were painted not long ago. Already starting to show a bit of wear.

 

But the discolouration processes going on with these steel roofs, painted with modern paint and in a relatively clean atmosphere, are quite different to the discolouration processes affecting a white lead-painted canvas on timber roof in the more sulphurous environment of an age heavily dependent on coal as fuel. 

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19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But the discolouration processes going on with these steel roofs, painted with modern paint and in a relatively clean atmosphere, are quite different to the discolouration processes affecting a white lead-painted canvas on timber roof in the more sulphurous environment of an age heavily dependent on coal as fuel. 

 

But there are other examples such as the NYMR webcams where they have wooden/canvas roofed carriages.

 

That was just an example. Those "Pullman" BR Mark One carriages were in a terrible state not long ago.

 

Besides we are talking about a modern carriage with a steel roof. The only RTR GWR autotrailers are steel bodied or steel on a wooden frame.

 

 

Jason

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1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

But there are other examples such as the NYMR webcams where they have wooden/canvas roofed carriages.

 

That was just an example. Those "Pullman" BR Mark One carriages were in a terrible state not long ago.

 

Besides we are talking about a modern carriage with a steel roof. The only RTR GWR autotrailers are steel bodied or steel on a wooden frame.

 

 

Jason

 

Fair do's. I hadn't appreciated that the RTR models are of steel-roofed types.

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9 hours ago, eastglosmog said:

Another thing to remember is that the shade of grey could vary from coach to coach along the train.  Also changes if the roof is wet or dry.

Not on a single coach train ;-)

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With respect, that's not an Autocoach for which I was seeking prototype knowledge. It does show the staining of the roof though on that particular coach. Do you know what that roof was painted with?

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2 hours ago, rynd2it said:

With respect, that's not an Autocoach for which I was seeking prototype knowledge. It does show the staining of the roof though on that particular coach. Do you know what that roof was painted with?

More to the point, it almost certainly isn't painted with lead-based paint, so it will weather differently in some respects. Nonetheless, it does illustrate the point.

 

Jim 

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2 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

..... but smoke from the chimney of a locomotive coupled to an 'autocoach' would have a similar effect.

 

Depending on the original finish - and that is still what is under investigation, but thanks anyway

 

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If you want to see Autocoach rooves in typical prewar service condition, try this website: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1793.htm

Beware, though, it is a very addictive site and you can spend hours wandering around it!

The basic pigment of the white lead paint that was used is Lead Carbonate (2PbCO3.Pb(OH)2).  According to current wisdom,  It reacts with Hydrogen Sulfide in the air to give grey Lead Sulfide, which is why white lead painted rooves turned grey with time.  I do not know if coaches stationed permanently in country districts with clean air went grey at a slower rate than those permanently based in sulphurous towns, but would imagine this could be the case.

An idle thought: If you are planning for your layout to cover a period of 5 years, say, you ought to have 5 models of the same coach, each with a slightly darker shade of grey roof and use them in succession to represent the aging process with the passing years.

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Not  to mention 5 of each loco, wagon, and building for the same reason.  Trees should be slightly bigger each year, as should child passengers.  Some of the adults should put weight on or gain grey hair; one or two will have shaken off this mortal coil.  

 

My layout is nominally 1948-58 as regards period, and I do not have locos or stock in pre 1948 liveries in new or unweathered condition.  To the same end, the few coaches in post 1956 maroon are pretty clean.  But there are a lot of anomalies that I just live with!

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7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Some of the adults should put weight on or gain grey hair; one or two will have shaken off this mortal coil.  

 

Someone who had recently seen Copenhagen Fields (at Basingstoke, I think) was commenting on the large number of exquisitely-painted figures and the use of tableaux - but also observed that they've been added to the layout over getting on for four decades, so some of the oldest should surely have moved on...

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11 hours ago, eastglosmog said:

If you want to see Autocoach rooves in typical prewar service condition, try this website: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1793.htm

Beware, though, it is a very addictive site and you can spend hours wandering around it!

The basic pigment of the white lead paint that was used is Lead Carbonate (2PbCO3.Pb(OH)2).  According to current wisdom,  It reacts with Hydrogen Sulfide in the air to give grey Lead Sulfide, which is why white lead painted rooves turned grey with time.  I do not know if coaches stationed permanently in country districts with clean air went grey at a slower rate than those permanently based in sulphurous towns, but would imagine this could be the case.

An idle thought: If you are planning for your layout to cover a period of 5 years, say, you ought to have 5 models of the same coach, each with a slightly darker shade of grey roof and use them in succession to represent the aging process with the passing years.

 

Now that is really helpful and definitive enough for my purposes. Thank you and thank you all for your contributions.

 

David

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