Planned Farish release schedule April 2019 - January 2020

[Guest Half-full]

8 minutes ago, fezza said:

 

I could be wrong Paddy, but I think the reason why Farish went down the more detail, more lights and sound route is that these are now relatively cheap to fit, but can command a much higher mark-up price and therefore better profit margins.

 

Farish produce what the market demanded, ie lights and detail, these are done on new models and may be cheap to fit, but the models are very very expensive to design and tool.  The mark-up/profit margins are not huge at all.

[grahame]

1 hour ago, Paddy said:

. . .  I modelled through the golden period when models were even more plentiful and the prices VERY reasonable. 

 

 

Terms like 'dear', 'expensive', 'reasonable' and 'cheap' concerning prices are just personal value judgements based on individual opinion and circumstance. No doubt there are some that find current prices very reasonable and possibly someone, somewhere thinks they're cheap. But one thing is pretty much nailed on and that is in 30 years time there will be people looking back and thinking that prices were very reasonable in 2020.

 

 

[fezza]

8 minutes ago, njee20 said:

 

 

Aside from occasionally staring, open jawed, at the size of US layouts and the quality of Pelle Soeborg's work in Model Railroader I can't comment on how US models are appraised in comparison.

 

Almost all the Model Railroader reviews talk about minimum speed - they actually calculate the starting and crawl speed!  We need something like this...

 

On the track question, the Kader business model is buy up an existing provider and improve the products with new ranges.  I have no idea if Peco would be attractive to them - probably not.  My own view is that Peco survives because it has always been there, has name recognition and controls the Toddler - a lot of its products are little different from those of thirty years ago.  It has contributed practically no real innovations to the hobby since the 1980s.

[njee20]

Do we? Some will find it useful, of course, but not all. For everyone who wants ultra slow shunting speed there will be another who models a mainline and always operates at a signficant speed. I'd like to know haulage capacity, but even that is prone to variability.

 

Again, Peco has a huge market share, I'm just not sure there's a huge (or indeed any) opportunity there at all. I think it's a superb range personally, a compromise between aesthetics, price, ease of use, robustness of course, but like I said, if you care there are other options out there. Yes, ok in N particularly I'm not sure we've seen anything new from Peco since code 55 in the late 80s except perhaps the assymetric 3-way turnout?

[fezza]

6 minutes ago, Half-full said:

Farish produce what the market demanded, ie lights and detail, these are done on new models and may be cheap to fit, but the models are very very expensive to design and tool.  The mark-up/profit margins are not huge at all.

 

I had a contact at Dapol that said these features allowed higher prices and bigger margins - that's not to say huge margins, but bigger margins than they would be otherwise.

 

I suspect the market is quite varied and that's maybe the problem?  A lot of 00 modellers are happy with Railroad and LIma, other won't touch anything that is not the latest DCC sound - and there are probably many in between.  I have some sympathy for manufacturers trying to navigate this minefield. I suspect many manufacturers  actively  try to push modellers into the areas that have the most profit and appeal to middle age modellers with the disposable income to spend on top of the range material.

[grahame]

28 minutes ago, Paddy said:

 

Rich mans hobby. Nope, can’t agree with you there. 

 

 In my opinion, some of this fragile detail is over the top for N gauge as it cannot be seen when placed on the layout.  

 

 

Actually model railways was originally a very rich mans hobby. Basset-Lowke locomotives were phenomenally expensive for the time they were first introduced and produced. It was Frank Hornby who made model railways appeal to a wider social audience. But even then it was targeted at the young lad and his father (who no doubt would be paying).

 

With regards to fine details on N gauge models the snag is that very often they can be seen on the models. In N gauge the models are small and light and people hold them in their hands up to their eyes to appreciate and inspect them. And even on a layout they are more often stationery at stations, in sidings, in the fiddle yard, at signals, on depot, and so on making them easy to see. Plus modern digital photography, that just about everyone possesses these days, allows close up pics to be taken (even at exhibitions from behind a barrier) and zoomed in on. I don't think detail is likely to disappear. After all it's what the market has demanded.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fezza]

4 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Do we? Some will find it useful, of course, but not all. For everyone who wants ultra slow shunting speed there will be another who models a mainline and always operates at a signficant speed. I'd like to know haulage capacity, but even that is prone to variability.

 

You can't operate a serious model railway without slow speed and crawl control.  All trains need to stop at stations, signals or switch into loops or sidings.  Even the ECML has low speed limits at station approaches and on diverging tracks.  To me, having locos that run at realistic speeds is the fundamental difference between a model railway and a train set (and there's nothing wrong with train sets, but most adult enthusiasts want something more sophisticated as they grow to understand more about how real railways operate).  But each to his own, of course.

 

I do think N gauge has suffered in the past because slow speed operation has not been possible until quite recently.  Even today, how many N gauge (as opposed to 2mm finescale) shunting layouts do you see at exhibitions?

[Paddy]

Damn, one more post.  Duck Fezza, you mentioned “train set”!

 

Edit. Take a look at Barrie’s train shed layout in the link below as it raises some interesting questions.  Barrie calls his model railway a “train set” upon which he runs “toy trains” (his words, not mine).  There is no ballast, uses Hornby track, mixes stock (rule 1) and has next to no scenery.  Yet, Barrie is an ex BR signalman and runs his “train set” to strict prototype practice with things like interlocking etc.

 

Kind regards

 

Paddy

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Paddy

[njee20]

7 minutes ago, fezza said:

You can't operate a serious model railway without slow speed and crawl control.  All trains need to stop at stations, signals or switch into loops or sidings.  Even the ECML has low speed limits at station approaches and on diverging tracks.  To me, having locos that run at realistic speeds is the fundamental difference between a model railway and a train set (and there's nothing wrong with train sets, but most adult enthusiasts want something more sophisticated as they grow to understand more about how real railways operate).  But each to his own, of course.

 

I do think N gauge has suffered in the past because slow speed operation has not been possible until quite recently.  Even today, how many N gauge (as opposed to 2mm finescale) shunting layouts do you see at exhibitions?

I'm being a bit facetious, of course slow running is useful, but I don't feel that quantifying that in magazine reviews would make any difference to my life or purchasing habits whatsoever.

 

Shunting layouts in N have all sorts of problems - pick up of short wheelbase locos, awkward/over scale couplers. I wouldn't build a shunting layout in N myself.

[Guest Half-full]

28 minutes ago, fezza said:

 

  My own view is that Peco survives because it has always been there, has name recognition and controls the Toddler - a lot of its products are little different from those of thirty years ago.  It has contributed practically no real innovations to the hobby since the 1980s.

What innovations do they need to bring?   There is only so much can be done with trackwork.  Yes, they could produce more accurate UK outline trackwork, other than that, what can they do?

 

In other scales, in 4mm they are growing a range of Bullhead track with accurate looking sleeper spacing, likewise in 4mm they are bringing out wood laser cut kits.  In 4mm/EM they will be producing EM plain track for the EMGS.  In 7mm they have brought out set-track trackwork.  In 3.5mm/HO they have brought out a large range of US outline code 83 track.  Nothing trackwise new for 2mm/N, but they may be working on for instance bullhead track in N in the background.  For all scales they have brought servo's for controlling points/signals etc to the mass market.

 

Ok so they aren't innovators as such, but Peco survive because they do what they do best - mass market, readily available, trackwork in various profiles at a very affordable price.

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hello all,

 

I think Peco’s achievements in thriving in what can be a very challenging market illustrates that they must be doing something right.

 

Having said that, when I look at the options for (particularly present day) modelling in N with superb models like the Dapol 68 what really lets things down is the track.  Wayne Kinney’s Finetrax is an excellent product, but it’s self-assembly and I know many of us are nervous about building track.

 

Personally, I think Peco are the best hope for better RTR track in N.  They’ve taken the decision to update their range in 00 as a previous poster pointed out; I hope they can be encouraged to do the same for N.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[fezza]

30 minutes ago, Half-full said:

What innovations do they need to bring?   There is only so much can be done with trackwork.  Yes, they could produce more accurate UK outline trackwork, other than that, what can they do?

 

 

 

Track that actually works for more than five minutes would be a start (!)  Being serious for a moment, I've spent a lot of time helping younger or returning modellers with switchblades, bent components, distorted frogs, bases that have expanded at room temperature, fishplates that won't fit, uneven rail heights / sleeper bases etc.  Unless you've got experience and a toolbox, these aren't easy to fix.  You can get away with some of these problems in 00 but not in N.  It is a source of much frustration.

 

Whatever criticisms I have of Farish, they have improved the breed considerably in the last 10 years and their DCC sound in N is quite remarkable.  Peco are mainly still churning out basically the same N components and kits that I had when I was a teenager.

 

I won't go too far off topic and talk about Peco's 00 bullhead, but bear in mind modellers had been calling for this for about 30 years and when it came there were a lot of people on here who were less than impressed. 

 

I accept Bach/Farish are unlikely to produce a track range, but it would be interesting to know what would happen if they were ever to take over Peco.  Peco have the market position, but not the quality - making them good candidates for Bachmann.  Perhaps Bachmann could do for Peco what they did for Farish and bring the operation into the 21st century.

[njee20]

Given the sheer volume of Peco track out there I think the problems you talk about are vanishingly small.

[Guest Half-full]

18 minutes ago, fezza said:

 

Track that actually works for more than five minutes would be a start (!)  Being serious for a moment, I've spent a lot of time helping younger or returning modellers with switchblades, bent components, distorted frogs, bases that have expanded at room temperature, fishplates that won't fit, uneven rail heights / sleeper bases etc.  Unless you've got experience and a toolbox, these aren't easy to fix.  You can get away with some of these problems in 00 but not in N.  It is a source of much frustration.

 

Whatever criticisms I have of Farish, they have improved the breed considerably in the last 10 years and their DCC sound in N is quite remarkable.  Peco are mainly still churning out basically the same N components and kits that I had when I was a teenager.

 

I won't go too far off topic and talk about Peco's 00 bullhead, but bear in mind modellers had been calling for this for about 30 years and when it came there were a lot of people on here who were less than impressed. 

 

I accept Bach/Farish are unlikely to produce a track range, but it would be interesting to know what would happen if they were ever to take over Peco.  Peco have the market position, but not the quality - making them good candidates for Bachmann.  Perhaps Bachmann could do for Peco what they did for Farish and bring the operation into the 21st century.

I know a fair few N gauge modellers and not one of them have had problems with Peco track that haven't been caused by themselves.  FIshplates can be tight in all scales, a simple tweak with a small screwdriver sorts that out in no time.  Even absolute beginners should have some basic tools.  Of course Peco are churning the same stuff that they have been for 30 years, it sells, so why not?  Farish do the same.  Hornby are still churning out stuff thats approaching 50 years old, Bachmann 40 years etc.  If it sells, why not?

 

I read negative comments about Peco's bullhead trackwork, the were mostly from the same people who moan about absolutely everything because nothing is ever good enough for them, yet the never show anything they produce themselves.  The bullhead track has flaws, but to be mass produced, it wont be 100% accurate, however, it looks 100% better than their standard track.

 

Bachmann have done a lot of good for Farish since taking them over, lots of great new models, fantastic decoration, great running (in the main).  The two repeating complaints about Farish are price and availability.

 

Going by Bachmann's record of sporadic supply and constant price increases (whether justified or not), would you really want them to take over Peco?  I for one wouldn't want to wait 6 months for the next shipment of fishplates, at 8 quid a packet.

 

At the moment you can go into almost any model shop and pick up almost any piece of Peco track and accessories, can you do that with Farish?  No!

 

Bachmann/Farish should stick to what they do best, which is making great models, leave Peco, Finetrax etc to do what they do best, which is trackwork.

 

Just because its the 21st century, doesnt mean its better!

Edited April 22, 2020 by Half-full

[TomE]

I think Bachmann have enough production problems of their own to sort out without throwing PECO into the mix! Also, why would they want to waste already limited resources to produce a product PECO have cornered the market in, and to a standard that most N Gauge modellers seem quite happy to accept. For those who want something more realistic there is Finetrax, a far superior product in terms of appearance. I note Ben's comment about it being self assembly, but Wayne has gone to some lengths to make it as simple as possible and I'd expect those who are after finer appearing track to be more willing to take on the challenge. Trust me, if I can build my own track anyone can do it!

 

As for the level of detail on N Gauge models, I wholeheartedly support Bachmann in their efforts to drag N Gauge away from table top train set into something fit for the 21st century. They are after all marketed as scale models of a specific prototype, not a vague representation of something. The idea of going back even to the days of models like the fairly recent V2 is totally antithetical to what I believe the market now demands, otherwise you wouldn't have Revolution producing the highly detailed models they do. 

 

At the end of the day, it all comes down to if someone considers whether they are getting value for money. When you take into account the accuracy, level of detail, mechanical performance and additional features like ease of DCC fitting/pre installed speakers etc, I think what Bachmann are asking us to pay is a fair price personally. 

 

Tom.  

 

 

[fezza]

35 minutes ago, Half-full said:

I know a fair few N gauge modellers and not one of them have had problems with Peco track that haven't been caused by themselves. 

 

I guess its a matter of opinion but I don't think it is a good idea to blame the customers - particularly the  newcomers and youngsters -  for their inability to use outdated, inconsistent and ill fitting products.  Anyway, I suspect people's basic manual and craft skills have generally declined over the years and people are less willing to wrestle with products that are unreliable.

 

Churning out the same substandard products you have been doing for years is called 'the British Leyland approach' at our local business school. Eventually the dominant market position is eroded as customers get wise to the better alternatives.

 

Bachmann, Farish and Hornby make their money but doing just the opposite - reinforcing established brand loyalty by reinventing the product line and adding innovative features.

 

Anyway I guess we have to agree to differ on this one.  I wasn't intending to start an argument.

[Bomag]

1 hour ago, Ben A said:

 

Hello all,

 

I think Peco’s achievements in thriving in what can be a very challenging market illustrates that they must be doing something right.

 

Having said that, when I look at the options for (particularly present day) modelling in N with superb models like the Dapol 68 what really lets things down is the track.  Wayne Kinney’s Finetrax is an excellent product, but it’s self-assembly and I know many of us are nervous about building track.

 

Personally, I think Peco are the best hope for better RTR track in N.  They’ve taken the decision to update their range in 00 as a previous poster pointed out; I hope they can be encouraged to do the same for N.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

Another issue with Finetrax is that there is no warranty; if it was ready to assemble and had a warranty it would be a more tempting option.

 

There is nothing stopping a manufacture like Farish, doing a more realistic ready to lay track and pointwork to the same geometry as Peco Code 55;  therefore it won't be a either / or - or a start from scratch. Perhaps some leadership or nudging by NGS once the Hunslets are sorted.

[Legend]

So reading through this , it seems that the consensus of opinion is that “n” market is actually quite healthy . Pricing from Revolution and Dapol seems reasonable . It looks like the major problem, is in fact Farish/Bachmann/Kader  who are not delivering enough product and whose prices are not in line with the rest  . Not totally dissimilar to “OO” . 

[Paddy]

Blimey, I really stirred up a hornets nest - my apologies.

 

Personally, I believe we are well served in the main for British N gauge and certainly better than when it was just Farish in Poole.  Like most people on this thread, I would not want to see a return to levels of detail that Farish Poole were manufacturing.  The livery application of today’s models is exquisite and I like the blackened wheels, see through spokes on steam locos in particular.  From personal experience, I would like to see an increase in overall robustness although given the size of models this would be challenging to achieve.

 

As Grahame said, price/value is a very personal thing.

 

As for PECO, they strike me as a very conservative company that firmly believes in evolution rather than revolution.  They did release the DCC fitted 2251 0-6-0 in N gauge (a lovely model and one I have in the fleet) but my understanding is that it was not commercially successful.  They are developing some new better detailed wagons as well so progress is there but as a slow pace.

 

As Ben said, PECO have been around for 70 years (did they start after WWII?) in what is a challenging market so their approach has merit.  No doubt they own their factory and land in Beer which gives them added resilience.  In normal times, PECORAMA must be a good income stream as well although no doubt they are worried for this year.

 

Anyway, all I would like for Christmas is a PECO R2 Setrack point. 

Keep safe.

 

Kind regards

 

Paddy

 

 

 

 

[grahame]

49 minutes ago, Paddy said:

Anyway, all I would like for Christmas is a PECO R2 Setrack point. 

 

 

Could you not just use a Peco code 80 Streamline medium radius (457mm) point (length 123.7mm) in the place you'll be installing a currently non-existent setrack version?  With electrofrog there is the added bonus of not having a plastic frog and getting better slow speed running. And it'll look better.

 

TBH I can't see Peco producing one when they've already effectively got that base covered.

 

 

[TomE]

1 hour ago, Legend said:Pricing from Revolution and Dapol seems reasonable . It looks like the major problem, is in fact Farish/Bachmann/Kader  who are not delivering enough product and whose prices are not in line with the rest  . Not totally dissimilar to “OO” . 

Im not sure I fully agree with that statement. I’d say Revolution and Farish are more comparable pricing wise (more so when you take out the early bird pricing or look at retail prices) whereas Dapol seem to have maintained their pricing lower. But then Dapol’s approach to N Gauge has changed, with only a couple of new tool items still pending from them and the rest simply reissues of existing tooling. Given the direction they are wandering off in, I’d say there’s a much higher probability of seeing Dapol drop N Gauge a long time before Bachmann ever seriously consider it.  
 

The big difference is Bachmann’s N Gauge output has significantly reduced for the multitude of reasons stated by them and others many, many times. Having had a period where we were spoiled with masses of new releases (perhaps too many?) I suppose it’s understandable why people would assume they were dialling back, but if you talk to them at the various events, they insist nothing could be further from the truth. 
 

Tom.

[Paddy]

Hi Grahame,

 

Sadly the medium radius Setrack point does not match the geometry of the Setrack range.  You are almost certainly right but as my wife says “if you don’t ask, you don’t get”. 

 

Personally, I have no problem with stalling on even PECOs R1 Setrack point even with short wheelbase locos.  Must be very lucky I suppose.

 

Kind regards

 

Paddy

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Paddy

[grahame]

14 minutes ago, Paddy said:

 

Sadly the medium radius Setrack point does not match the geometry of the Setrack range.  

 

 

I wouldn't let that be a stumbling block. A little consideration, fiddling, fettling and constructive effort, possibly with a bit of flexi track, and you could adapt to fit.

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hello all,

 

I’d suggest Revolution’s pricing model enables its products to sit between Dapol and Farish in this debate, though probably closer to Farish.

 

Revolution can only operate because customers are prepared to step forward and fund the projects we generate, so the pricing is very clearly tiered to benefit them, with the pre-order price being, in effect, the trade price.  

 

Those who choose to wait and purchase from retailers - which is absolutely fine of course - will pay the equivalent of RRP or thereabouts, and usually approx 30% more.  I am ignoring the sometimes crazy eBay prices!

 

The fundamental point though is that customers can manage what they pay by choosing when to order.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Ben A

[Revolution Ben]

2 minutes ago, Lantavian said:

 

Alternatively, the early funders are getting a discount because they are taking much more risk with their money than the people who wait and buy the stuff in shops. 

 

 

 

Agreed - whichever way you look at it, those who get involved early get the best deal.  That has always been at the absolute core of the concept.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.