"Worked Scotches or Derailers may be used"

[Edwin_m]

9 hours ago, Banger Blue said:

Reading TCD, you can see the derailer in the closed position on the rail, just to the front of the 387. All the shed roads are protected by a derailer and they are interlocked with the Depot Protection System. The yellow case to the side of the track is the operating motor.

 

Just so it's clear, these are protecting the people in the shed from the unexpected arrival of a train, not protecting the running line. 

[jonhall]

this is what sits outside Swanage loco shed to stop loco's ending up in the turntable pit.

 

 

Jon

[Boris]

13 hours ago, RLWP said:

If he has to remember to drag it back, what's the point of having it?

For protecting staff working in buildings, or in the case of severe gradients to stop vehicles wandering off down the siding on their own if the handbrakes aren't applied correctly etc.  It's no different than remembering to apply a handbrake, chock or sprag stabled vehicles, reset a hand point  or many other things the shunter has to remember to do because its part of his job.

 

Incidentally this folding stop block from cherry tree survives and is now installed on the shed road at Goathland.  Bloody heavy thing it is too!

[RLWP]

6 minutes ago, Boris said:

For protecting staff working in buildings, or in the case of severe gradients to stop vehicles wandering off down the siding on their own if the handbrakes aren't applied correctly etc.  It's no different than remembering to apply a handbrake, chock or sprag stabled vehicles, reset a hand point  or many other things the shunter has to remember to do because its part of his job.

 

So, does it comply with "Safety Points - worked scotches or derailers may be used in instead of safety points where protection is necessary." ?

 

It sounds like a piece of shunters safety equipment, not a piece of signalling equipment

 

I'm not denying it's usefulness in a shunting yard, it clearly would do what is intended of it. I'm trying to work out if it would satisfy the BOT if it is not somehow interlocked.

 

I'm not expecting point rodding or some kind of positive link to a signalbox, perhaps a key to unlock it that can only be released when a set of sidings is isolated from a running line

 

Richard

[Wickham Green]

19 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

 

 

This derailer at Blaye on the Gironde has been left open . It looks as though it may have been remotely operated but probably just by a local lever.The line, which served the local port, closed in 2004 when grain transport was transferred to road 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is that bullhead rail ? ( no, NOT Bulleid ) - I thought they'd always used that flat-bottomed stuff sur le continong !

[Joseph_Pestell]

4 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

Is that bullhead rail ? ( no, NOT Bulleid ) - I thought they'd always used that flat-bottomed stuff sur le continong !

 

Bullhead (double-champignon) was used extensively in west and south-west France. This is mainly because they used softwood (pine) sleepers that would not take the track spikes used at that era with flatbottom (vignole) rail.

[Wickham Green]

19 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Bullhead (double-champignon) was used extensively in west and south-west France. This is mainly because they used softwood (pine) sleepers that would not take the track spikes used at that era with flatbottom (vignole) rail.

Merci bien.

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Not necessarily. Catch points could be worked by signal boxes as in rule 63 "Where Catch Points are worked from Signal-boxes, Signalmen must ..(keep them open unless required for a facing move) .." that was in the 1904 GWR version but by 1950 it had become "Runaway Catch Points....." suggesting that there could be a confusion of terms. 

I don't know when the term "Trap points" replaced the earlier "Safety Points" and on which railways. It appears in the 1933 LNER rule book and the 1950 rule book in rule 62 as "Trap Points, derailers and Scotch Blocks but it's "Safety Points" or "Safety Points and Scotch Blocks " in the 1904 GWR rule book so it looks as though derailers appeared fairly late. Did traps refer originally only to trap sidings rather to points designed to throw runaway wagons off the line?

Though trap points were sometimes used, derailers seem for some time to have been the norm in France to protect running lines from secondary lines. These can be remotely operated but were more commonly kept locked and opened locally with a key whose release was interlocked with the relevant signals being closed.

 

 

 

The terminology definitely changed over the years.  Ideally I would take a lead from 'the Requirements' and the term 'safety point' was still in use in the mid 1920s revision.  But it had changed to 'trap point' in the 1930s reissue of the RCH Rule Book (i.e the 'standard' Rule Book which all of the main line companies used as the basis of their own Rule Book).

 

However the distinction of catch points (or catch siding, or throw-off siding  - as they were in the 1902 revision of the Requirements) seems to have become 'catch point' in railway publications by 1920 if GWR evidence is any guide.  So pre 1920 the equivalent of a trap point would be a safety point while a catcgh point was either a catch point or catch siding.

[iands]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The terminology definitely changed over the years.  Ideally I would take a lead from 'the Requirements' and the term 'safety point' was still in use in the mid 1920s revision.  But it had changed to 'trap point' in the 1930s reissue of the RCH Rule Book (i.e the 'standard' Rule Book which all of the main line companies used as the basis of their own Rule Book).

 

However the distinction of catch points (or catch siding, or throw-off siding  - as they were in the 1902 revision of the Requirements) seems to have become 'catch point' in railway publications by 1920 if GWR evidence is any guide.  So pre 1920 the equivalent of a trap point would be a safety point while a catcgh point was either a catch point or catch siding.

Thanks Mike.

[Trog]

19 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The terminology definitely changed over the years............

 

I would strongly expect that terms also changed from place to place and between companies. As a lot of PW components have different names depending on where they are even today.

 

Bed = crib

Pad = mat

Nylon  = biscuit = and in the case of one supervisor I knew from Norwich carrot. (They were often orange in colour)

Longitudinal Timber = Wheel timber.

S&C = P&C (Switches and crossings / points and crossings)

etc.

[Zomboid]

21 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Bullhead (double-champignon) was used extensively in west and south-west France. This is mainly because they used softwood (pine) sleepers that would not take the track spikes used at that era with flatbottom (vignole) rail.

If only we'd called it Double-mushroom too.

 

"I can't start my layout until the peco double-mushroom single slip is available"...

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, Trog said:

 

I would strongly expect that terms also changed from place to place and between companies. As a lot of PW components have different names depending on where they are even today.

 

Bed = crib

Pad = mat

Nylon  = biscuit = and in the case of one supervisor I knew from Norwich carrot. (They were often orange in colour)

Longitudinal Timber = Wheel timber.

S&C = P&C (Switches and crossings / points and crossings)

etc.

There definitely appears to have been a very loose use of the term 'catch point' on some Companies although technically they were all singing out of the same hymn book RCH Rule Book.    From what i've seen of the 1930s reissues the terminology was standard - at least for operators.  

 

But poor/incorrect, or downright sloppy, use of terminology seems to have de bedevilled the railway for many years with particular examples on the operating side being the incorrect use of the term 'Pilot Driver' instead of 'Conductor Driver' or - even worse, and potentially dangerous - the misuse of the word 'pilotman' to describe a Conductor Driver.  The same of course applied to assistant engines being described as 'pilots' - which they very definitely weren't but it was an extremely common misuse.

[Trog]

It could even be a matter of different departments having different definitions, lets face it the operating and the engineers still don't quite agree on what a tunnel is.