Fitting Programming Track as Part of the Layout

[Sir TophamHatt]

I have no real intention of doing this but wondering if it would be possible to have a siding that has a connection to the programming track output of my controller?

 

To separate it from the rest of the layout, it would have insulated joiners.  However, this means it would stall when entering the siding.  So could an additional set of wires be joined so allow locos/units to enter the siding?

 

Or would the controller just ka'blowy?

 

I hope I'm clear enough.

[Oldddudders]

Insulated rail joiners cannot prevent a loco bridging the gap and causing electrical difficulties, potentially terminal. To be ultra safe, you need a neutral section between layout and prog zone, as well as a switch to feed the prog track either with DCC or the prog input. That switch would also need to kill the neutral section when the prog feed was connected. Possible, awkward, not necessarily prat-proof. 

[Marcus-Jay]

As you mention it would need to be isolated from the main DCC trackwork, and your isolation fishplates should do the trick there. A DPDT switch should do the trick for the track itself. But I would be inclined to have a generous locos length dead section between the two pieces of track, just on the off chance you try and run something with multiple pickups into the programming siding by mistake.

[WIMorrison]

all you need to do is to use a DPDT switch for the siding with one side connected to the track output of your controller and the other side connected to the programming track output. You simply drive into the siding with the DPDT set to main track, then switch to programming track to do the programming and back again to drive out. IF you accidentally drove over the insulating fishplates onto the rest of the layout when programming - and that would be very hard to do then nothing will happen - other than the loco would stop.

 

If you have a modern controller, such as a Z21, then you don't even bother with the switch - you simply drive onto a bit of track (fed by the programming track output) do the programming then drive out - Z21 takes care of the 'switch' element.

 

There is no magic here, nothing to panic about and no danger of damaging anything - though I am sure someone will come along and say that they ruined the most expensive loco that they had irreparably using this method , but everyone that I know uses this simple DPDT method and it works for 100% of those people (it is also how Lenz, Digitrax, etc say to wire it up.)

[Art Dent]

Hi STH

 

I have plans for a Program Track that is a siding that can be either part of the main layout or switched for programming (with an isolating section to prevent full track voltage fritzing the programming track output if a loco bridges the IRJs*).

 

Currently not at home atm (at work lol) but will post the diagram later this afternoon.

 

Art

 

*Insulating Rail Joiners = plastic fishplates

[ianLMS]

Mr Brian Lambert covers wiring the programming track here; 

 

https://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC_Page_1.html#Bookmark2

 

I followed his simple guidance using a DPDT switch and my track is a siding at the front of the layout located between two points. I also fitted an LED light to the panel so I know when the section of track is activated.

 

 

 

[Art Dent]

As promised earler, the wiring diagram for a switchable Programming Track and Isolating section.

 

This was designed with the Gaugemaster Prodigy I had at the time in mind.  Slightly more complicated with my NCE system which doesn't have a dedicated programming track output.

 

 

The Isolating section needs to be long enough that your longest loco / DMU can fit on it with room to spare.  This prevents the loco briging the gap and connecting the low-curent Programming Track to the high-current Main Track.  If this were to happen, the most likely result would be to fry the programming track output.

 

I have seen it suggested elsewhere that it may be advantageous to stagger the joints in adjacent rails by between 5 and 10mm.

 

The diagram (as drawn) shows both the programming track and isolating section (Sections A and B) connected to the main track output.  Locomotives can be driven from the main track straight through the isolating section onto the programming track.

 

The switch is then thrown.

 

The programming track (Section A) is now connected to the programming track output, the isolatong track (Section B) isn't connected to anything whilst the main track (Section C) remians connected to the main track output of the booster/command station.

 

I have opted for a 'Centre Off' 4PDT (4-pole, double throw) switch as this means I can kill power to both the isolating section and programming track - for example to test what happens to a stay-alive fitted loco on a rolling road when track power is lost.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Art

Edited March 21, 2019 by Art Dent

[Izzy]

4 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

all you need to do is to use a DPDT switch for the siding with one side connected to the track output of your controller and the other side connected to the programming track output. You simply drive into the siding with the DPDT set to main track, then switch to programming track to do the programming and back again to drive out. IF you accidentally drove over the insulating fishplates onto the rest of the layout when programming - and that would be very hard to do then nothing will happen - other than the loco would stop.

 

If you have a modern controller, such as a Z21, then you don't even bother with the switch - you simply drive onto a bit of track (fed by the programming track output) do the programming then drive out - Z21 takes care of the 'switch' element.

 

There is no magic here, nothing to panic about and no danger of damaging anything - though I am sure someone will come along and say that they ruined the most expensive loco that they had irreparably using this method , but everyone that I know uses this simple DPDT method and it works for 100% of those people (it is also how Lenz, Digitrax, etc say to wire it up.)

 

I will accept your challenge. If the track output gets anywhere near the program outputs it will blow them. I know because this happened with my Prodigy command base station. So there is every danger of damaging things. That is why there are suggestions of a dead/netural zone between the two tracks, on the better-safe-than-sorry basis.

 

Izzy

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WIMorrison]

Has it occurred to people here that you use full track voltage when running trains and that doesn’t destroy decoders or command stations, also when Programming on Main that same full track voltage is used to read and write CVs yet that still doesn’t destroy decoders or command stations.

 

Then also consider the variations in track voltages used by different manufacturers ranging from 12v to 18v which means that some people’s programming voltage is above the track voltage of other systems and that doesn’t cause decoders to explode or command stations to collapse.

[Art Dent]

2 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Has it occurred to people here that you use full track voltage when running trains and that doesn’t destroy decoders or command stations, also when Programming on Main that same full track voltage is used to read and write CVs yet that still doesn’t destroy decoders or command stations.

 

Yes it has.

 

Has it occurred to you that the Programming Track output is current limited so that it doesn't destroy decoders?

 

BTW, I'm not talking about damaging the decoder, but not damaging the command station.

 

The OP was specifically asking about a command station that has a dedicated programming track output.  Exposing the (current-limited) programming track output to the main track voltage will, like as not, fritz the programming track output of the command station.

 

Art

Edited March 21, 2019 by Art Dent

[RFS]

I have a Lenz LZV100 with a programming track that is a siding, and power to it is via a DPDT switch for either DCC power or programming track. I also have a Lenz 23170 decoder programmer that is connected to this track via another switch. It allows me to drive a loco (or multiple unit) into the siding and then switch over to programming. I have on occasions accidentally driven a train into the siding with the switch set the wrong way - the train obviously stops but the neither LZV100 nor the 23170 were in any way affected so I assume they protect themselves against this event

Edited March 21, 2019 by RFS

[Art Dent]

Yes, some systems have circuitry in place to prevent overload damage to the program track output, however, some don't!

 

Art

[WIMorrison]

So the ones that don’t have limiters builtin will be feeding the programming track in the same way that they feed the main track, yet when you Programme on Main that doesn’t wipe out decoders or cause command stations to commit suicide when setting CVs so why should it cause an issue when you do exactly the same on another bit of track that is being called the programming track?

[Art Dent]

Just now, WIMorrison said:

So the ones that don’t have limiters builtin will be feeding the programming track in the same way that they feed the main track, yet when you Programme on Main that doesn’t wipe out decoders or cause command stations to commit suicide when setting CVs so why should it cause an issue when you do exactly the same on another bit of track that is being called the programming track?

 

Because when you are Programming on the Main you are using the Track Main outputs of the command station - the Programming Track outputs aren't involved.

 

The OP has a DCC System (Gaugemaster Prodigy) that has both Program Track and Track Main outputs.

 

They have asked about using a siding as a programming track.  Presumably, they want to use this piece of track as a normal siding for most of the time and occasionally switch it over to Programming Track Mode.

 

If they inadvertantly left the point so that the siding was accessible from the main line and they were programming a loco, a loco could run up the siding, bridge the gap between the 'Track Main' side and the 'Program Track' side and expose the Programming Track to the full current of the main track and damage the command station's programming track output.

 

Art

 

BTW it is Program on main, not Programme.  “Programme” is UK English. It is used for every meaning of the word, both as a noun and a verb, EXCEPT in relation to computer programs, where the American spelling is used for both the noun and verb. So even in the UK we “program” computers and write “computer programs”.

[RAF96]

Added to that there is no guarantee that the main and programming outputs from the controller are in phase with regard to DCC polarity. That if mismatched also will as stated ‘fritz’ the programming circuitry of some if not all controllers.

 

Edit - I thought a programme was something you got on the telly.

Edited March 21, 2019 by RAF96

[Art Dent]

4 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

Added to that there is no guarantee that the main and programming outputs from the controller are in phase with regard to DCC polarity. That if mismatched also will as stated ‘fritz’ the programming circuitry of some if not all controllers.

 

Agreed.

 

4 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

Edit - I thought a programme was something you got on the telly.

 

It is.  See my BTW above.  British English uses 'programme' for everything except when talking about computer programs where the Brits use the Americanized version - program.

 

Art

Edited March 21, 2019 by Art Dent

[WIMorrison]

Firstly, thank you for the lesson on English. I don’t need it and assure you that my command of the language is more than sufficient without your interjection, most definitely in the use of programme having worked in the IT industry for major multinationals for over 40 years.

 

Secondly every system that I have come across which has a separate programme track output has switched  off the main track when being used in programming mode ergo the situation you suggest wouldn’t occur.

 

But clearly you see things differently, adding a layer of complexity that doesn’t exist and raising fears that don’t need to be raised but if that makes you happy so be it.

 

 

[WIMorrison]

21 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

Added to that there is no guarantee that the main and programming outputs from the controller are in phase with regard to DCC polarity. That if mismatched also will as stated ‘fritz’ the programming circuitry of some if not all controllers.

 

Edit - I thought a programme was something you got on the telly.

 

Like when you have a reverse loop, overrun the isolation and the module doesn’t change over?

 

mysteriously that doesn’t result in a damaged controller or decoder either.  

[WIMorrison]

21 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

Added to that there is no guarantee that the main and programming outputs from the controller are in phase with regard to DCC polarity. That if mismatched also will as stated ‘fritz’ the programming circuitry of some if not all controllers.

 

Edit - I thought a programme was something you got on the telly.

 

Like when you have a reverse loop, overrun the isolation and the module doesn’t change over?

 

mysteriously that doesn’t result in a damaged controller or decoder either.  

[melmerby]

You could fit a changeover relay that operates when full track voltage is applied so that the programming track is normally connected to the main layout.

Without full track voltage it would be connected to the programming output of the controller (provided the controller switches from one to the other and does not do both at once!)

 

Edit

I have a length of track (about 9') which I have done this so that it can be a programme track and a main track without my intervention.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2019 by melmerby

[Izzy]

50 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Firstly, thank you for the lesson on English. I don’t need it and assure you that my command of the language is more than sufficient without your interjection, most definitely in the use of programme having worked in the IT industry for major multinationals for over 40 years.

 

Secondly every system that I have come across which has a separate programme track output has switched  off the main track when being used in programming mode ergo the situation you suggest wouldn’t occur.

 

But clearly you see things differently, adding a layer of complexity that doesn’t exist and raising fears that don’t need to be raised but if that makes you happy so be it.

 

 

 

Clearly you haven't come across the MRC/Gaugemaster Prodigy system, which the OP has, and which it would seem does not turn off the main track output when the program track mode is in use.

 

Izzy

 

 

 

 

[Phil S]

Regardless of whether the main output is turned off or not

[ in all my cases [ ztc, roco, lgb, massoth ] they have been, which is why i use a separate controller and test loop** on our portable h0 layout ] .

.. if the loco, or metal wheelset bridges the gap between 'programming' section, and 'main layout' - then during the moment of programming ..ALL locos / programmable devices on the main layout will also be programmed at the same time --- I have done this on my loft layout, where I have a long section of track for hsts etc - switchable to program output and double isolated at each end .. ..and had about 5 locos to reprogram again!!

 

A dead [during programming] section of track between them should help enure this potential problem is avoided  [ trains can move during programming ..and may reach the gap by sods law ].    As the  programming track avoids my PSX's protecting the main tracks....the wheels bridging the gap does that too!

 

** I can drive on and off this isolated loop via a crossover pair which also switches the power source to the test loop between main track and test/programming   ... a circular loop ensures no overunning of rail breaks, but a connected loop also  allows the multi-car train to be driven on or off if desired

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Phil S said:

Regardless of whether the main output is turned off or not

[ in all my cases [ ztc, roco, lgb, massoth ] they have been, which is why i use a separate controller and test loop** on our portable h0 layout ] .

.. if the loco, or metal wheelset bridges the gap between 'programming' section, and 'main layout' - then during the moment of programming ..ALL locos / programmable devices on the main layout will also be programmed at the same time --- I have done this on my loft layout, where I have a long section of track for hsts etc - switchable to program output and double isolated at each end .. ..and had about 5 locos to reprogram again!!

 

A dead [during programming] section of track between them should help enure this potential problem is avoided  [ trains can move during programming ..and may reach the gap by sods law ].    As the  programming track avoids my PSX's protecting the main tracks....the wheels bridging the gap does that too!

 

** I can drive on and off this isolated loop via a crossover pair which also switches the power source to the test loop between main track and test/programming   ... a circular loop ensures no overunning of rail breaks, but a connected loop also  allows the multi-car train to be driven on or off if desired

 

If the command station changes from main to programme output just use a relay and insulated joiners. No faffing with extra lengths of track.

As long as the track is long enough to allow for movement during programming - Simples

Edited March 21, 2019 by melmerby

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Izzy said:

 

Clearly you haven't come across the MRC/Gaugemaster Prodigy system, which the OP has, and which it would seem does not turn off the main track output when the program track mode is in use.

 

Izzy

 

Which IMHO is not a good design feature.

[John ks]

My Digitrax has both the DCC track & DCC program outputs live at the same time

 

Here's a possible solution for a single ended siding

As shown the relay is off, the dead section & program track are connected to the track power

Turn on the program switch, the relay closes, the dead section goes off & the program track is connected to the command station program out

Trains can't enter the program track as the point is set for the main

Trains on the program track shouldn't be able to get to the main line due to the dead section

 

 

John