Elevated signal boxes Ex-MR / LMS

[cga]

I am aware of two ex-MR / ex-LMS signal boxes that were built in an elevated fashion such that a track ran beneath the box.  One was situated at Matlock, and the other at Eckington and Renishaw .  Illustrations are available on flickr and in various books such as the late Bill Hudson's 'Rails through the Peak' and 'North Midland Volume 2'.  The Matlock box is clearly on a metal girder framework, that at Eckington looks as though it might be wooden.  I am contemplating building a 4 mm scale model, albeit probably using a two-bay box rather than a three-bay box, and wondered if anyone can provide more information about either of these boxes or other similar ones, if indeed there were others.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

 

[eastglosmog]

Can't help with the Midland, I'm afraid, but the LNWR had a few examples, such as Chester No.6, Preston 2A, New Mills  and Wilderspool.  There are some drawings of the Wilderspool cabin support structure in "A pictorial record of LNWR signalling" by R D Foster (OPC, 1982) which looks very similar to the Midland one at Matlock.

PS I suppose as an odd joint Midland/GWR example, you could count the control box on the swing bridge section of the Severn Bridge Railway.  Definitely elevated (perched on top of the girders) and had signals at right angles to the running line that applied to the canal.

[beast66606]

The Midland look to have adopted the same approach as the LYR - build a standard box on a gantry structure.

The frame required depth to house the interlocking, the LNWR had a version of their frame which meant overhead cabins could be a shallow top, it looks like the MR did not.

[cga]

Thank you both.

 

I have since found on the HMRS website a photograph of the Eckington and Renishaw box with a note that the frame is metal rather than wooden.  Not surprising really as many of the Midland boxes that did not have a concrete base were susceptible to rot as described in other databases.

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/eckington-and-renishaw-elevated-signal-box-f7r-goods-shed-beyond-full-height-xmidland-box-set-upon-steel-supports.html

 

https://signalbox.org/index.php

 

Mike

 

[kevinlms]

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Eckington_%26_Renishaw_Signalbox.jpg

[cga]

I have just found a downloadable document 'MR Signal Box Configurations' from Ambis Engineering (ambisengineering.co.uk/MRsignalboxes.pdf) that is quite helpful for MR signal box design, and which among other things states 'We currently know of five elevated boxes, all different'.  Matlock is mentioned.  Two others are Armley Junction, Leeds, and Barton Street Junction at Gloucester.  Unfortunately the other two are not defined, but Eckington is presumably one of those.  Confusingly, It also states for Matlock 'Generally fairly standard design of period 3 except it is mounted on a largely timber frame and is cantilevered about 4 feet outwards from the frame', so possibly the frame was originally wooden and altered, at least in part, at some subsequent date.

 

There are several photographs of the Gloucester box on Flickr.

 

Mike

 

[eastglosmog]

The fifth one is presumably Walworth Road Coal Depot, London.  There are some pictures of it in Midland Record 14 (p18-32).

[Compound2632]

I do feel that unless you are modelling one of these specific locations, an elevated Midland box would look strange and, crucially, untypical and hence inauthentic. There are, I think, a few examples of Midland boxes with non-standard ground floors - conventional wood frame and panels, but narrower than the upper floor, so the latter overhangs, usually on I-section steel beams. In such boxes, the lever frame would have to be at the rear, not above the overhang. Ilkley Junction is an example. Two preserved boxes, Guiseley, now at Bolton Abbey, and Kilby Bridge, now at the Midland Railway Centre, Butterley, are examples that overhang on both sides, so the frame is near the middle of the box. 

 

There is an authoritative article on Midland boxes in Midland Record, unfortunately I'm away from home so can't quote you chapter and verse.

[kevinlms]

22 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I do feel that unless you are modelling one of these specific locations, an elevated Midland box would look strange and, crucially, untypical and hence inauthentic. There are, I think, a few examples of Midland boxes with non-standard ground floors - conventional wood frame and panels, but narrower than the upper floor, so the latter overhangs, usually on I-section steel beams. In such boxes, the lever frame would have to be at the rear, not above the overhang. Ilkley Junction is an example. Two preserved boxes, Guiseley, now at Bolton Abbey, and Kilby Bridge, now at the Midland Railway Centre, Butterley, are examples that overhang on both sides, so the frame is near the middle of the box. 

 

There is an authoritative article on Midland boxes in Midland Record, unfortunately I'm away from home so can't quote you chapter and verse.

Not sure I can agree with that implication.

 

Many successful model railways have been built on 'what if' scenarios.

 

The classic Midland example, was the North London S4 Groups layout Heckmondwike. It was designed to be a what if, the Midland had actually built this proposed line & how would it looked, using typical Midland structures of that period.

 

An elevated signal box, is obviously something very much designed to suit a specific and presumed cramped site. Almost certainly, such a signal box, would have cost more to build than a standard one.

So if at all possible, the layout would have to be designed in such a way, that the elevated box is the only practical option. Otherwise the Midland (or any other railway for that matter), would have built a standard signal box, in a nearby location. It's hard to give a distance, but I'm sure they would have considered the other side of the main lines or maybe 50 - 100 yards up or down.

 

An elevated box near to a nice flat piece of ground, would I think be totally wrong.

[cga]

9 hours ago, eastglosmog said:

The fifth one is presumably Walworth Road Coal Depot, London.  There are some pictures of it in Midland Record 14 (p18-32).

 

 

Thank you, yes it is.  It is mentioned in the Ambis Engineering document and cites the reference you have given.  I missed it because they do not use the word 'elevated' in the text.

 

Mike

[adb968008]

Does this count as elevated....?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northenden_railway_station#/media/File%3ANorthenden_Signal_Box_1979_edited-2.jpg

[Ian Smeeton]

28 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Does this count as elevated....?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northenden_railway_station#/media/File%3ANorthenden_Signal_Box_1979_edited-2.jpg

 

No, just very high

 

Regards

 

Ian

[Invicta]

18 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Does this count as elevated....?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northenden_railway_station#/media/File%3ANorthenden_Signal_Box_1979_edited-2.jpg

 

18 hours ago, Ian Smeeton said:

 

No, just very high

 

Regards

 

Ian

 

Yes, I'd agree that an unusually tall box (another example, Coalville), is a very different thing to an elevated one built on a gantry or frame- and presumably for different reasons- 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Invicta

[adb968008]

Is this a candidate ?

 

its a very well known box at any rate..

http://www.wbsframe.mste.co.uk/public/Clapham_Junction_A.html

[kevinlms]

20 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Does this count as elevated....?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northenden_railway_station#/media/File%3ANorthenden_Signal_Box_1979_edited-2.jpg

It's for very tall signalmen!

[adb968008]

10 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

It's for very tall signalmen!

I was thinking maybe strong ones too..

[Welchester]

As we've moved away from the Midland, does Birmingham Snow Hill North count?

[eastglosmog]

To get this back to the (North) Midland, how about Chevin Ridge signal tower (2nd from left in the header of this pub walk leaflet) http://www.trailswithales.co.uk/?page_id=693 ?

It could even be claimed to meet the original criteria, as it was built over the North Midland's Milford tunnel so has a rail line passing under it.  Built in the 1830s, it is believed to be one of the earliest signal towers still in existence.  How much use it was on a typical northern claggy day , I don't know!

[cga]

Thank you all for your contributions

 

Regarding the positioning of the elevated boxes, that at Matlock is specifically described as being necessary to ensure adequate visibility.  Inspection of the available photographs and plans in Bill Hudson's book suggest there are other adjacent locations available at ground level, although possibly the situation was different at the date of building.

 

Few model railways have the space to accommodate a true scale representation of any site, and usually as a consequence are crowded, and since also most are freelance rather than a specific location, a gantry-raised box is not necessarily lacking in authenticity or otherwise inappropriate.

 

There is (or was) another similar box at Swinton Junction where the ex-GC line from Doncaster joins the North Midland line, illustrated in Bob Pixton's North Midland Volume 3, built on an embankment and such that the gantry is only obvious when viewed from behind the box.  It also appears to be one of the higher boxes with about 18 planks below the verandah, and with steps not only to track level but also apparently from ground level at the rear (possibly a canal towpath) up to the frame room access door.  The track diagram is available here but I haven't found a photograph on the web.  https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=871

 

Carlton Main Sidings box is not dissimilar but the angle of the photograph does not show the gantry so clearly.  With numerous boxes situated on embankments it is likely that this arrangement was quite common.

 

Has anyone found a photograph of the box at Armley?

 

The narrow base, cantilevered boxes, appear to have been more common.  Another well known example was just south of Sheffield Midland.

 

Just for the record Hexham on the Newcastle-Carlisle line is another well known example of a box on a gantry.

[John-Miles]

Brynamman had a Midland cantilevered box.

[eastglosmog]

I have been having a look at the development of the elevated Midland signal box at Gloucester as shown on old OS maps.

The elevated Barton St Junction box at Gloucester seems to have been built when the adjoining Station Rd was widened at the end of the nineteenth century and took the space where the previous signal box had been.  With the church on the other side, land would not have been available on that side, either.  If the widening of the road was a City or County Council project,  I wonder whether they paid some of the cost of the new box, making it more attractive to the MR? 

So if you dream up a similar scenario, your elevated box ought to look authentic.

[melmerby]

21 hours ago, Bishop of Welchester said:

As we've moved away from the Midland, does Birmingham Snow Hill North count?

Only if you have power operated signalling & points.

[Steamport Southport]

As we've already strayed from the Midland.

 

Probably one of the most famous. Edge Hill No 1. I was trying to find one of the Eric Treacy photos of it, but couldn't find any. I hope a Jack Nelson model will suffice. 

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Modelling/layout_jn_dio5.php

 

 

Jason

[cga]

On 23/03/2019 at 16:14, cga said:

 

 

Thank you, yes it is.  It is mentioned in the Ambis Engineering document and cites the reference you have given.  I missed it because they do not use the word 'elevated' in the text.

 

Mike

Thank you all for your contributions

 

Regarding the positioning of the elevated boxes, that at Matlock is specifically described as being necessary to ensure adequate visibility.  Inspection of the available photographs and plans in Bill Hudson's book suggest there are other adjacent locations available at ground level, although possibly the situation was different at the date of building.

 

Few model railways have the space to accommodate a true scale representation of any site, and usually as a consequence are crowded, and since also most are freelance rather than a specific location, a gantry-raised box is not necessarily lacking in authenticity or otherwise inappropriate.

 

There is (or was) another similar box at Swinton Junction where the ex-GC line from Doncaster joins the North Midland line, illustrated in Bob Pixton's North Midland Volume 3, built on an embankment and such that the gantry is only obvious when viewed from behind the box.  It also appears to be one of the higher boxes with about 18 planks below the verandah, and with steps not only to track level but also apparently from ground level at the rear (possibly a canal towpath) up to the frame room access door.  The track diagram is available here but I haven't found a photograph on the web.  https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=871

 

Carlton Main Sidings box is not dissimilar but the angle of the photograph does not show the gantry so clearly.  With numerous boxes situated on embankments it is likely that this arrangement was quite common.

 

Has anyone found a photograph of the box at Armley?

 

The narrow base, cantilevered boxes, appear to have been more common.  Another well known example was just south of Sheffield Midland.

 

Just for the record Hexham on the Newcastle-Carlisle line is another well known example of a box on a gantry.

[cga]

On 23/03/2019 at 16:14, cga said:

 

 

Thank you, yes it is.  It is mentioned in the Ambis Engineering document and cites the reference you have given.  I missed it because they do not use the word 'elevated' in the text.

 

Mike

In addition to the Midland record article there is on the web another article by Edwin Course from the Railway Magazine about this box with at least one photograph available at http://www.semgonline.com/RlyMag/ForeignDepotsofSthLondon.pdf.

 

Thanks to Nick Holliday who in 2011 drew attention to this in a previous thread on Walworth Road Coal Drops

 

Mike