GWR Three car AEC Railcar sets

[Tallpaul69]

I would like to find out what the Western Region used around 1960 as a substitute for the 3 car AEC Railcar set comprising two single ended cars and an intermediate corridor coach. One of the two of these was stationed at Reading and while it mainly worked in the Reading-Newbury area it did do a morning run empty from Reading to Slough, and in service, from Slough through to Newbury. This is my interest in the unit.

 

Clearly it had to be serviced, and possibly sometimes broke down? If, so what was used to substitute it?

Doubtless as time went on there were class 117 3 car DMUs at Reading in sufficient numbers to cover the duty?

But c 1960, towards the end of the steam hauled trains between Newbury and the Thames Valley Line what was used?

 

I think it unlikely that anyone will make a ready to run 00 version of this set, so short of cannibalising, or finding someone to cannibalise, some Lima single car units, I need to find a substitute for this unit!

Any ideas?

 

Many thanks

Paul

[Dunsignalling]

Presumably it worked in a diagram with at least some of the more modern 3-car sets based at Reading. There would have presumably been enough sets allocated to cover normal servicing routines, i.e. so that they weren't all required to be available every day.

 

Indeed, if Reading was awaiting the arrival of more new units, chances are the GWR set was retained specifically to provide that cover.

 

John

Edited March 21, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Miss Prism]

W33W + coach + W38W worked a Reading-Newbury shuttle in August 1959 (for example). I tend to agree with Dunsignalling though that the set ended up providing cover for other units. The set used to sit outside the Reading DMU depot for weeks on end, looking somewhat forlorn.

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

There was also the Hawksworth coaches that were used in DMU sets. I don't think they were the ones that worked in the GWR sets though.

 

https://www.railcar.co.uk/topic/hawksworth-coaches/

 

 

Jason

[dibber25]

No, the three Hawksworths were used, initially in Gloucester Cross-country units on the Paddington-Oxfords in order to provide some compartment accommodation (which was still in demand in those days). Later, they floated around in other units such as 117s. I photographed all three on the dump at Swindon Works around 1965. (CJL)

[Miss Prism]

The coach working between W33W and W38W was W1096W, a late Collett C77 3rd. Unlike the three Hawksworths working with the 119s/117s, W1096W's green matched its power cars, and even its waistlining was aligned.

 

 

 

 

.

[The Johnster]

A 117 sounds unlikely (I'm not going as far as saying impossible, mind) as a substitute for the AEC 3 car set as they were not gangwayed in those days.  I would imagine a borrowed Swindon or Gloucester Cross Country dmu would be more likely, but I think Bristol St Phillip's Marsh would be the nearest depot.  The job to be covered presumably required gangways and toilet facilities.

[Dunsignalling]

9 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

A 117 sounds unlikely (I'm not going as far as saying impossible, mind) as a substitute for the AEC 3 car set as they were not gangwayed in those days.  I would imagine a borrowed Swindon or Gloucester Cross Country dmu would be more likely, but I think Bristol St Phillip's Marsh would be the nearest depot.  The job to be covered presumably required gangways and toilet facilities.

Always supposing it had a dedicated diagram to itself, in which case, what happened if it became unavailable unexpectedly and SPM had nothing spare to lend?

 

Miss Prism reports the unit sitting unused for long periods which suggests it might well have been used just to make up the numbers in the 117 link. That wouldn't preclude it being restricted to a specific duty when it was in use, with the 117 thus released replacing whichever set was "down".

 

John

 

 

[dibber25]

17 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

The coach working between W33W and W38W was W1096W, a late Collett C77 3rd. Unlike the three Hawksworths working with the 119s/117s, W1096W's green matched its power cars, and even its waistlining was aligned.

Two, possibly all three Hawksworths, plus the Collett on the Swindon dump. (CJL)

 

 

 

.

 

[Tallpaul69]

The summer 1961 carriage working diagrams confirm that set 33 which works the morning empty stock Reading to Slough and then the 7.45 am lough to Newbury was a 3 car suburban set, no different to the other such sets based at Reading, slough etc. Which is what contributors  have said.

 

However, if we go back to the winter 1958 WTT this train is specifically labelled as "Twin Diesel". Elsewhere in that timetable we find that the term "Twin Diesel" refers to AEC cars 33 and 38. So some time between these two dates the Collett coach was added in between.     

 

So we are left with the problem of what substituted for the above when it was serviced/broken down? Unfortunately I don't have a 1958 Coach working diagram book to help with this.

My feeling is that it was probably a set of suburban or corridor coaches (whatever was spare at Reading) and whatever small engine was free at Reading. It could be a small tender engine, such as a 22xx, working the ECS tender first so that it was the right way round for the main run to Newbury, as the Turntable at Slough was small, so probably too small for these engines.

Again the Carriage Working diagram or Loco Working Diagram would assist us.

 

I think I will go for the 22xx with a mixed set of suburban and corridor coaches for this substitute train . This will add variety to my layout distinguishing this train from the common 61xx tank plus collett or BR suburban set that made up so many of the trains in the area before the arrival of the 3 car class 117 DMUs! 

 

I intend to use a mix of 61xx sets and class 117 sets to reflect the period when the 117s had taken over many of the suburban diagrams, but some of the rush hour extras and most of the High Wycombe branch trains were still 61xx sets.

 

Best regards

Paul

[Miss Prism]

For steam, large Prairies ruled on such suburban services. I doubt a 22xx was ever used on a passenger service in the Reading district on the mainline.

 

[terry.ecmr]

Here's one I made earlier.....................

Shown on my Earl's Court layout.

 

 

[Huw Griffiths]

5 hours ago, terry.ecmr said:

Here's one I made earlier.....................

Shown on my Earl's Court layout.

 

Now that's what I call a model train.

 

Somehow, I suspect I might soon be having another look at the thread in which you said how you went about building this.

 

I could also imagine following this with a search for information on how I might try building one for myself (even if more likely to be in an earlier colour scheme) - then, quite possibly, a load of "head scratching".

 

 

Regards,

 

Huw.

[wrman]

I lived in Basingstoke and regularly "spotted" at Reading from 1958 onwards, and worked there from 64 to 66. W33-1096-W38 were the regular units on the Newbury line frains from 58 until they were scrapped. When in for sevicing/repair they were replaced by a Gloucester 3-car cross-country unit in the series W51052 etc .(class 119)

 

Regards

 

Rod.

Edited March 24, 2019 by wrman

[Tallpaul69]

7 hours ago, wrman said:

I lived in Basingstoke and regularly "spotted" at Reading from 1958 onwards, and worked there from 64 to 66. W33-1096-W38 were the regular units on the Newbury line frains from 58 until they were scrapped. When in for sevicing/repair they were replaced by a Gloucester 3-car cross-country unit in the series W51052 etc .(class 119)

 

Regards

 

Rod.

Thanks for the info wrman!

I had hoped the substitute was a steam one, but the class 119s would be a change from a diet of 117s.

Now wat's the chance of someone producing 119s RTR? Slim I guess?

 

So back to the drawing board.

 

Incidentally, wrman, in 1958-60 did you ever get to Reading bright and early? I am trying to find out what powered the 0540 Reading to Princes Risborough via Maidenhead Parcels and the 0535 Oxford to Slough Fish and parcels?

 

Best regards

Paul  

[wrman]

Sorry Paul, cheap day return tickets didn't start until 9:00 so into Reading about  9:45. The class 119s were painted in the early lighter mu green , same as W33-1096-W38 so a contrast to the darker 117s.

 

Regards , Rod.

[Tallpaul69]

19 hours ago, wrman said:

Sorry Paul, cheap day return tickets didn't start until 9:00 so into Reading about  9:45. The class 119s were painted in the early lighter mu green , same as W33-1096-W38 so a contrast to the darker 117s.

 

Regards , Rod.

Thanks Rod,

 

Details of any unusual workings from/to the London direction into/out of Reading, while you were observing would be appreciated?

 

Did you for instance, see any of W33 etc  single car sisters, and if so were any of them in carmine and cream as against the lighter mu green?

 

What tank locos did you see apart from the 61xxs and the various panniers?

 

Best regards

Paul

[Tallpaul69]

On ‎27‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 10:49, Tallpaul69 said:

Thanks Rod,

 

Details of any unusual workings from/to the London direction into/out of Reading, while you were observing would be appreciated?

 

Did you for instance, see any of W33 etc  single car sisters, and if so were any of them in carmine and cream as against the lighter mu green?

 

What tank locos did you see apart from the 61xxs and the various panniers?

 

Best regards

Paul

Further to the above,

Can anyone advise when the AEC Railcars started to be repainted from Carmine and Cream to Light DMU Green, and when the last one was so treated and which one that was?

 

Many thanks

Paul

[dibber25]

3 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Further to the above,

Can anyone advise when the AEC Railcars started to be repainted from Carmine and Cream to Light DMU Green, and when the last one was so treated and which one that was?

 

Many thanks

Paul

I don't have any hard and fast reference date but I suspect it was when they moved to Worcester, as Worcester had its own workshop. The Southall examples (all in carmine and cream) left in 1958 when they were replaced by Gloucester singles. I have no evidence of a green one ever appearing on the Staines branch but green ones were common on the Severn Valley/Bewdley/Tenbury Wells/ Wooferton/Bromyard lines. I suspect that Worcester received them in poor condition and gave them a one-over in green. The GWS preserved example was green when delivered initially to Bridgnorth. The KESR example was still in carmine and cream at Rolvenden. (CJL)

[Tallpaul69]

On ‎30‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 18:46, dibber25 said:

I don't have any hard and fast reference date but I suspect it was when they moved to Worcester, as Worcester had its own workshop. The Southall examples (all in carmine and cream) left in 1958 when they were replaced by Gloucester singles. I have no evidence of a green one ever appearing on the Staines branch but green ones were common on the Severn Valley/Bewdley/Tenbury Wells/ Wooferton/Bromyard lines. I suspect that Worcester received them in poor condition and gave them a one-over in green. The GWS preserved example was green when delivered initially to Bridgnorth. The KESR example was still in carmine and cream at Rolvenden. (CJL)

Thanks Dibber25,

I have also seen a picture from 1952 of a single car unit towing an Autocar in Brian Morrison's "British Rail DMUs & Diesel Railcars".

I assume this worked in the same way as a non auto fitted steam loco, and required the AEC car to run round the Autocar at the end of each run?

 

Best regards

Paul

[johnlambert]

12 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Thanks Dibber25,

I have also seen a picture from 1952 of a single car unit towing an Autocar in Brian Morrison's "British Rail DMUs & Diesel Railcars".

I assume this worked in the same way as a non auto fitted steam loco, and required the AEC car to run round the Autocar at the end of each run?

 

Best regards

Paul

Yes, auto-trailers were used to strengthen some railcar services.  From memory there are some pictures on the Warwickshire Railways website including a description of the railcar running around the coach.

[dibber25]

A rare colour shot of the three-car, which I acquired some years ago. Sadly no info, date etc but I recognise it as Iver (I used to trainspot there) the unit on the up relief, heading away from the camera. (Goods line in the foreground). (CJL)

[Tallpaul69]

On ‎01‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 21:30, dibber25 said:

A rare colour shot of the three-car, which I acquired some years ago. Sadly no info, date etc but I recognise it as Iver (I used to trainspot there) the unit on the up relief, heading away from the camera. (Goods line in the foreground). (CJL)

Hi All,

Further to this and earlier postings about when the AEC Railcars went green, I have found two pictures that show in the Thames Valley, green and carmine and cream versions working side by side, and pairs of single railcars (double ended) working in tandem!

The pictures are in "Britain's Rail Super Centres-London the Great Western Lines" on page 36. There is a view dated 4th May 1960 of a green unit (W30) at Cowley on the Uxbridge Branch departing for Uxbridge.

Below that is a view of W24 and W25 in carmine and cream , on the same day(!) approaching Cowley on route from Uxbridge to West Drayton.

 

Any details of interesting trains you saw at Iver would be welcome?

 

Best regards

Paul

 

[dibber25]

The only records I kept from my train spotting days are two logs at Iver on 10th and 17th August 1962. At that time I was deliberately NOT logging DMUs. I know that's an awful confession and I wish I could go back and change my mind. However, I know I didn't see any GWR railcars. Pressed Steels reigned supreme at the time except for the fast Oxfords which had Gloucester cross-country (119) units. They were usually 7 cars - two units, one of which had a Hawksworth corridor compo in the middle. I logged 15 'Castle' sightings (some being the same loco on up and later down trains) on 10/8/62. No. 7003 Elmley Castle was on the 9 coach up Cheltenham Spa Express. On August 10th I saw my first Class 52, D1006 Western Stalwart, on the 13-coach down 'Cornish Riviera'. The following week D806 was on the down 'Cornish Riviera'. Two 'Kings' were seen that day - 6021 on an up parcels and 6000 on a down excursion which, though I haven't logged it as such, I recall was the 'Cardiff Holiday Express'. Also that day, 'Castle' 5066 Sir Felix Pole was on 11 coaches labelled for Paddington-Plymouth and Paddington-Falmouth. It was rare at that time to see a steam-hauled express bound for the West of England. (CJL)

Edited April 4, 2019 by dibber25

[Tallpaul69]

On ‎04‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 20:00, dibber25 said:

The only records I kept from my train spotting days are two logs at Iver on 10th and 17th August 1962. At that time I was deliberately NOT logging DMUs. I know that's an awful confession and I wish I could go back and change my mind. However, I know I didn't see any GWR railcars. Pressed Steels reigned supreme at the time except for the fast Oxfords which had Gloucester cross-country (119) units. They were usually 7 cars - two units, one of which had a Hawksworth corridor compo in the middle. I logged 15 'Castle' sightings (some being the same loco on up and later down trains) on 10/8/62. No. 7003 Elmley Castle was on the 9 coach up Cheltenham Spa Express. On August 10th I saw my first Class 52, D1006 Western Stalwart, on the 13-coach down 'Cornish Riviera'. The following week D806 was on the down 'Cornish Riviera'. Two 'Kings' were seen that day - 6021 on an up parcels and 6000 on a down excursion which, though I haven't logged it as such, I recall was the 'Cardiff Holiday Express'. Also that day, 'Castle' 5066 Sir Felix Pole was on 11 coaches labelled for Paddington-Plymouth and Paddington-Falmouth. It was rare at that time to see a steam-hauled express bound for the West of England. (CJL)

Thanks for the info,

 

I started with the aim that my 00 steam age era model would be 1962ish.

However I do want to run GWR railcars and prefer steam on my Oxfords. There not being (yet) a class 119 model, I guess the date should be 1961ish or even 1960ish?

So can anyone confirm when the Oxfords stopped being steam.?

 

Also, when in 1960-2 did the GWR Railcars stop running on the Thames valley main line and /or the High Wycombe branch?

 

Another point is that I have seen pics of GWR Railcars working in tandem. Did this require 2 drivers, or were the cars modified to work multiple unit?  (I am talking here about the standard cars, not the single ended cars that ran together or with a intermediate coach)

 

Many thanks,

Cheers

Paul