Engines on the GW&GC Joint?

[1165Valour]

Does anyone know what the main types of engines were used on the Great Western and Great Central Joint Railway? I was wondering if any of Robinson's 4-6-0 or 4-4-0 types would have worked there at some point.

[bike2steam]

Go to BR Database website, then site/depot/Neasden or Woodford Halse,/ locos allocated .           That'll give you an idea.

Edited March 23, 2019 by bike2steam

[1165Valour]

On 23/03/2019 at 08:38, bike2steam said:

Go to BR Database website, then site/depot/Neasden or Woodford Halse,/ locos allocated .           That'll give you an idea.

Thanks, this should be useful. Would the Oakwood Press book on the GW&GC have much on this?

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 23/03/2019 at 12:27, GWRSwindon said:

Does anyone know what the main types of engines were used on the Great Western and Great Central Joint Railway? I was wondering if any of Robinson's 4-6-0 or 4-4-0 types would have worked there at some point.

 

I am fairly sure that they must have done. But it does not seem to have been a subject that tempted photographers of the era. All the photos that I can recall seeing are of GC/LNER trains running via Aylesbury and the GC/Met Joint.

[tigerburnie]

From what I found researching the later period around the mid 1950 to the end of steam, trains heading south and west would have taken this route whereas the trains going to Marlyebone went on the Met/GC. Now the Robinsons were before the period I was modelling, so not sure, but as has been said locos were often changed at Woodford prior to joining the GW route so that would be a pointer for the freight trains, however most of the passenger trains changed locos and crews at Leicester, so the "footballers" may well have taken the route.

[Compound2632]

Well, with the Robinson 4-4-0s and 4-6-0s (along with the 4-4-2s) being the Great Central's leading main-line locomotives when they were introduced, and the GW & GC Joint Line being an integral part of the Great Central's main line, of course they did! 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

From what I found researching the later period around the mid 1950 to the end of steam, trains heading south and west would have taken this route whereas the trains going to Marlyebone went on the Met/GC. Now the Robinsons were before the period I was modelling, so not sure, but as has been said locos were often changed at Woodford prior to joining the GW route so that would be a pointer for the freight trains, however most of the passenger trains changed locos and crews at Leicester, so the "footballers" may well have taken the route.

'Footballers' were in fact at one time authorised over the Wycombe branch and West Curve at Slough in order to work excursions to Windsor so they clearly had authority to be on at least part of the Joint Line.  However J15s don't appear to have been authorised anywhere south of Risborough (but were authorised over and used on the Watlington branch).    A3s definitely worked from Marylebone via the Joint Line in later years and the big ex GC tanks worked local passenger trains for many years on the Joint Line.

 

The winter 1947 STT shows LNER freights in both directions to/from Marylebone running via the Joint Line but the only LNER passenger services were the local trains from Marylebone to either High Wycombe or Risborough

 

Most of the freight to the WR worked via Woodford/Banbury in any event and was normally worked by Western engines as far as I've found out so far although in soem cases Woodford engiens worked as far as Banbury (but we're now off the  Joint Line of course).

[tigerburnie]

My understanding was that when the GC was under the Eastern region they had almost equal access to the Met line, but once it was moved to the Midland, they started sending most traffic via the joint line, this also coincided with the Master Cutler train name being put onto the ECML and the general run down of the GC commenced. I think the traffic to Wembley Stadium still used the Met, but that was almost it, this was of course in the late 1950's when almost all LNER stock was removed apart from a few V2's and B1's, the "midlandisation" took full effect then. 

Having consulted my "GC from the footplate" it would seem that the down Master Cutler went via the joint line whilst the up train went via Aylesbury.

Edited March 26, 2019 by tigerburnie

[Western Star]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The winter 1947 STT shows LNER freights in both directions to/from Marylebone running via the Joint Line but the only LNER passenger services were the local trains from Marylebone to either High Wycombe or Risborough.

Care to share with me?

 

regards, Graham

[The Stationmaster]

42 minutes ago, Western Star said:

Care to share with me?

 

regards, Graham

How much detail do you want Grahame?

[Western Star]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

How much detail do you want Grahame?

The freight / goods workings between Princes Risboro' and H Wycombe...  passenger similarly.

 

Never having seen a LNER STT I am not aware what else that document might contain which is relevant to understanding how the LNER worked traffic on the GW&GC Jt.  Thank you, Mike. regards, Graham

Edited March 26, 2019 by Western Star

[tigerburnie]

I have a 1953 WTT if there's anything you might want to know from that feel free to ask.

[Western Star]

25 minutes ago, tigerburnie said:

I have a 1953 WTT if there's anything you might want to know from that feel free to ask.

My core interest in the GW&GC Jt is October 1910....  I asked Mike for details from his 1947 document because (a) I have never seen a LNER STT and (b) I have no details of any of the GCR services!  All that I do have on the GW&GC Jt relates only to GWR services.

[Jim Martin]

The GCR society has quite an extensive collection of timetables in its archive. It's members only, so you'd have to join. The list can be downloaded from http://www.gcrsociety.co.uk/archive.html. I have copies of the WTT pages for the Oldham, Ashton & Guide Bridge line which I assume I obtained from the society back when I used to be a member.

 

Jim

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, Western Star said:

The freight / goods workings between Princes Risboro' and H Wycombe...  passenger similarly.

 

Never having seen a LNER STT I am not aware what else that document might contain which is relevant to understanding how the LNER worked traffic on the GW&GC Jt.  Thank you, Mike. regards, Graham

It is in fact rather more unusual than an LNER one as it is a joint GWR/LNER publication and basically it looks very little different from contemporaneous GWR STTs - in fact it doesn't even contain as much 'ancillary  detail' as some of them running little beyond lists of basic running times and signalbox hours with no engine restrictions/permissions included at all.  Can't photpocopy it as it is part of a complete bound set of GWR STTs for the whole of the Company's lines - just about liftable!

 

I can extract the GC services although how closely they compare with 1910 I have no idea.  Incidentally my bound 1938 GW STT set does not include a Section 1A for the Joint Line and Section 1 only shows GWR trains so I wonder if there were two separate STTs in earlier years and the joint one only came about because of WWII? 

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 25/03/2019 at 21:59, Compound2632 said:

Well, with the Robinson 4-4-0s and 4-6-0s (along with the 4-4-2s) being the Great Central's leading main-line locomotives when they were introduced, and the GW & GC Joint Line being an integral part of the Great Central's main line, of course they did! 

 

 

 

Well, that was my take on it. But I have not found any photos to prove it. I did have a book on the subject but I think it is one of those that went when the collection was "rationalised".

[Joseph_Pestell]

14 hours ago, Western Star said:

My core interest in the GW&GC Jt is October 1910....  I asked Mike for details from his 1947 document because (a) I have never seen a LNER STT and (b) I have no details of any of the GCR services!  All that I do have on the GW&GC Jt relates only to GWR services.

 

I have the Bradshaw reprint timetable for 1910. We should be able to identify any GC passenger trains on the GC/GW Joint from that.

[Jim Martin]

Locomotives Illustrated no. 145, page 13, is captioned "... No 362 is having to work harder on the 1 in 175 climb through the Chilterns near Gerrards Cross with the eleven carriage 12:15pm Marylebone-Sheffield express in 1912..." The same photo (I think) is on page 28 of Great Central Remembered, by D.L. Franks, similarly captioned but with a reference to there being three "Barnum" open thirds in the train, which is clearly incorrect.

 

No 362 was a Gorton-based Atlantic, but it was a top-line express locomotive and it was on the GC&GW joint line.

 

Bear in mind that in 1910 "Robinson 4-4-0" would have meant GC class 11B/11C i.e. the LNER D9. The Directors didn't enter service until 1913. Also, there weren't that many 4-6-0s in service: the "fish engines" (LNER B5) and "small-wheeled fish engines" (B9), the two locomotives built for comparison with the Atlantics (B1) and the Imminghams (B4). I'm not certain where the early 4-6-0s were based - I assume that the goods engines were in the north. The Sir Sam Fays were introduced in 1912.

 

Jim

[1165Valour]

7 hours ago, Jim Martin said:

Locomotives Illustrated no. 145, page 13, is captioned "... No 362 is having to work harder on the 1 in 175 climb through the Chilterns near Gerrards Cross with the eleven carriage 12:15pm Marylebone-Sheffield express in 1912..." The same photo (I think) is on page 28 of Great Central Remembered, by D.L. Franks, similarly captioned but with a reference to there being three "Barnum" open thirds in the train, which is clearly incorrect.

 

No 362 was a Gorton-based Atlantic, but it was a top-line express locomotive and it was on the GC&GW joint line.

 

Bear in mind that in 1910 "Robinson 4-4-0" would have meant GC class 11B/11C i.e. the LNER D9. The Directors didn't enter service until 1913. Also, there weren't that many 4-6-0s in service: the "fish engines" (LNER B5) and "small-wheeled fish engines" (B9), the two locomotives built for comparison with the Atlantics (B1) and the Imminghams (B4). I'm not certain where the early 4-6-0s were based - I assume that the goods engines were in the north. The Sir Sam Fays were introduced in 1912.

 

Jim

Looking at BRDatabase, several B7s were based out of Neasden throughout the 1910s-20s, so there's that.

[Compound2632]

The OP's "at some point" leaves the date range wide open...

[1165Valour]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The OP's "at some point" leaves the date range wide open...

Very true, my apologies. I had intended to ask if the engines ever worked often on the GW&GC at any point in their working lives, with special reference to the 1918-1922 period. 

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

Very true, my apologies. I had intended to ask if the engines ever worked often on the GW&GC at any point in their working lives, with special reference to the 1918-1922 period. 

 

I would have presumed that this would be the "peak period" - with the late Robinson 4-4-0s and 4-6-0s fresh out of the works. A model of the joint line at this period would be spectacular, with Directors running hard on those fast Leicester timings and Stars on the Birmingham 2-hour expresses (claret carriages of course).

[1165Valour]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I would have presumed that this would be the "peak period" - with the late Robinson 4-4-0s and 4-6-0s fresh out of the works. A model of the joint line at this period would be spectacular, with Directors running hard on those fast Leicester timings and Stars on the Birmingham 2-hour expresses (claret carriages of course).

What years did the "peak period" you describe embrace? The Directors were introduced in 1913, and then WWI begins, ending so much of the colorful Pre-Grouping days.

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

What years did the "peak period" you describe embrace? The Directors were introduced in 1913, and then WWI begins, ending so much of the colorful Pre-Grouping days.

I meant the period you mentioned, from the end of the Great War to the Grouping. I'd call that the high point of the joint line, with the top-rank engines of both companies on the crack expresses. The big Robinson engines somehow don't look as handsome in LNER green or black as they did in the ornate livery they were still wearing after the Great War and in my own view - with which many will disagree - the Saints and Stars look much more sleek and handsome than the rather fat Castles and Kings of the Grouping years. As for claret carriages: well, it always was their natural colour, as British Railways eventually acknowledged.

 

In any case, colour was on the way out on Britain's railways by the time the joint line opened, as declining profitability began to bite. The real "peak period" was the 1890s.

[DCB]

The GC line went through a number of changes of locos. I believe both Met and GW/GC lines were used for GC expresses.

From opening the loads were light so there was a short era of Politt 4-2-2's and 4-4-0s until the GC Atlantics came on the scene. They were numerically the mainstay of GC services until WW2 but first the Director and improved Directors usurped them on the best turns and then the Lord Farindons appeared post WW1 and were rapidly puroined by the East Coast line in LNER days. The LNER only had about 8 modern express locos to begin, 5 NER A2 pacifics and 3 GNR A1 pacifics and barely 20 by 1924. The 6 Faringdons were the next best modern locos the LNER had.   They came back to the GC around 1927 with more A1 pacifics in service and the rebuilt Gresley / Ivatt Atlantics with new piston valve cylinders and almost certainly brand new large superheater fitted boilers which out performed the Faringdons on the level if not up hill.

From 1927 until the B17 Footballers came around the mid 30s  Faringdons  Atlantics and Directors held sway and even when the B17s came it seems Faringdons were preferred for the hardest turns including the heavy overnight Manchester train which at one time was one of the fastest trains in the country.    WW2  saw the  effective end of the GC locos as lower speed limits mean thy could no longer rush the banks and had to bring in V2 and A1 / A3 to time the trains. All the GC 4-6-0s and 4-4-2s had gone by 1950.  I believe the large wheeled 4-6-0s rather than their smaller wheeled cousins were common on the London extension while the 5'8" wheeled locos were more normally found north of Leicester   The GC 4-6-0s were quite standardised as regards boilers etc but Robinson couldn't quite decide how big the wheels should be or how many cylinders or whether they should be inside or outside or both so some classes had two or three members.   Effectively no two were alike.   Bit like Black fives or class 47s really.

The early 50 were possibly the golden age of the GW/GC line as "Fying Scotsman" and GW Kings, possibly KGV himself could be found on consecutive trains.   I am not sure where the GW and GC diverged but 100 mph was achieved at Princes Risborough and at Denham by GW Stars and Castles so this was a pretty fast bit of line.