Please Help! - Signalling advice for LMS layout

[RailWest]

There is no reason for the (outermost) home on the blue line to have two dolls/arms for the simple reason that there is no diverging route between it and the next stop signal (in rear of the double slip) to which the 2nd (LH) arm would apply.

 

It is true that in 'ancient times' it was not uncommon to have extra 'junction' signals in rear of the one actually at the junction (for advance notification of the route to be taken), but AFAIK all such things disappeared long ago (at least as far as semaphore signalling is concerned).

[ianLMS]

I thought I only had one reply (from Railwast) so I amended the plan and uploaded it. Looking back I discover there are several comments to consider. So, I deleted the amended plan I had updated and will take into consideration the other comments and re-upload tomorrow.

 

Thank you all again 

ian

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by ianLMS

[Jub45565]

3 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Ok, that makes sense - I was thinking S meant Skipton. The lack of a slotted distant under S.12/J.3 was really throwing me as I was assuming that it was the section signal. However if the boxes are so close that S.12/J.3 is Junction's (outer?) home signal (i.e. is the start of Junction's station limits) then it begins to make sense.  I wonder how the blocks were worked.

 

This is becoming a tangent so I'll stop it now.  I would suggest that Ian does not try to copy such a relatively complicated arrangement.

 

One other point about Embsay - it's another Midland station with ground signals only for moves onto the running line. 

 

Agreed - the interaction with the junction gets a bit complicated and is a tangent, but as you say (and the reason I shared) is where they used ground signals.

 

From the same source is a description of how they ran ballast empties into the quarry, and that some of the moved required a duster even though it was a routine operation.  Just less than halfway down the following page (search for 'duster', and go to the third hit and read that caption).  This isnt necessary for Ian as the quarry has been swapped for a shed, but as I say covers the principle that not every legitimate shunting move would have a signal.

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page94.htm

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, imt said:

 

For clarification, and just for my own education and future reference,  I was suggesting the splitting main arms were incorrect certainly before the platform - high up on the left blue line.  My understanding was that as a goods train would not be run direct into the goods yard but first be brought to a stand, hence pre-signalling a splitting branch was incorrect, was that that not right? I understand that at the station starter a miniature arm could be used to signal a train into the yard.  I also understand (and said) that the double slip in that position was unusual.

Definitely the case in rear of the platform but not necesssarily so at the platform end (as had already bene noited by somebody I think).

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Jub45565 said:

From the same source is a description of how they ran ballast empties into the quarry, and that some of the moved required a duster even though it was a routine operation.  Just less than halfway down the following page (search for 'duster', and go to the third hit and read that caption).  

 

Thanks, that page is a great resource. BTW the photo whose caption you refer to shows ground signal 15. It appears to be a Midland type, whereas 17 also visible is an upper quadrant disc.  This may be why 15 is represented differently on the diagram.

[ianLMS]

Again, thank you to everyone who has contributed to helping me get a reasonably good impression of signaling on my layout, even though some of it isn't necessarily prototypical. Unfortunately, it was designed with fun/usability rather than prototype operations in mind and I didn't find RMWeb until after I had laid the track and got several months in to the scenery. 

 

The LMS Ratio signal kit offers 4 types of signal, and one of them is the "splitting" distant under a Stop, however, I have only made one of these so not much of an issue if I don't need it; They also offer a small "passing Loop" signal on a small bracket under the main Stop signal, 

 

I think I have taken in all of the comments, believe I have understood a few of them and tried to apply them to the plan; I have omitted the Home signal on the blue line at the start of the platforms, omitted the signals with the Distants, removed the superfluous signals in the middle, added in a yellow disc for 18, and placed a miniature arm for the entry into the goods loop, I hope its right!!

 

 

 

 

[RailWest]

1. Far too many of the shunt discs are still in the wrong place. They should be in rear of the toe of the points to which they apply, not part the way across a diverging route etc. Maybe that's just a quirk of your drawing software?

 

2. I think you've now gone to the other extreme with the 'stop' signals and removed too many! To mis-quote Micheal Caine "you were only meant to blow the ruddy distants off" :-) You ought to reinstate the one at top RH on the blue line, otherwise there is no visible limit to movements out of the yard etc. Maybe also keep the one in rear of 21, and possibly even reinstate the one at top LH on the blue line -  others here may disagree.

[The Stationmaster]

54 minutes ago, RailWest said:

1. Far too many of the shunt discs are still in the wrong place. They should be in rear of the toe of the points to which they apply, not part the way across a diverging route etc. Maybe that's just a quirk of your drawing software?

 

2. I think you've now gone to the other extreme with the 'stop' signals and removed too many! To mis-quote Micheal Caine "you were only meant to blow the ruddy distants off" :-) You ought to reinstate the one at top RH on the blue line, otherwise there is no visible limit to movements out of the yard etc. Maybe also keep the one in rear of 21, and possibly even reinstate the one at top LH on the blue line -  others here may disagree.

Bearing in mind that it's Midland (or LMR) a paucity of stop signals on running lines would not be unusual,.  However I would put back the Starting Signal on the blue line complete with lower arm distant, or even lower arm splitting distant as much for scenic interest as for teh operational aspect.

 

I think the position of the ground disc is a drawing software thing as it seems very consistent.

[Grovenor]

Since Phil sorted my downloading problem I thought i should make use of it!

Here is my take on what people are saying, I added the missing traps as you need to know where they are even if you don't model them, else the signals don't get sited properly, also shown the platform location.

Rgds

[ianLMS]

Wow. This is great. Thank you for that. I now have something i can work to and know it will be right. Really appreciate you taking the time to correct my mistakes. 

 

With reference to siting the dics, i was confused about the toe part of the point refenced in earlier suggestions.  I was thinking its like a foot. The heel is the where the point motor is and the toe is the routes off the point, or did i get that wrong? 

 

Now Grovenor has very kindly done the work for me, i now understand what you are talking about. 

 

I can now build the correct signals and place them in the right positions. 

 

Thank you all for being very patient with me. 

 

Ian

Edited April 11, 2019 by ianLMS

[Titanius Anglesmith]

1 hour ago, ianLMS said:

With reference to siting the dics, i was confused about the toe part of the point refenced in earlier suggestions.  I was thinking its like a foot. The heel is the where the point motor is and the toe is the routes off the point, or did i get that wrong? 

 

It’s the other way round; the toe is at the tips of the switch rails, ie where the motor or rodding would be. The heel is at the end where the “frog” is (although I’ve never heard it called a frog in the real world, only by railway modellers)  

[ianLMS]

Ah, that explains it! Simple when u know!

 

Thanks for the clarification. 

 

Ian

[Compound2632]

On 09/04/2019 at 12:58, Jub45565 said:

Looking at your track layout Ian, the concept you have is similar to Embsay, so have a look at the signalling used there:

 

 

That was slightly different, as Embsay junction was pretty close (in the Skipton direction) so had some interaction at that end. Otherwise, aside from a slightly busier goodsyard and swapping the quarry for a shed it should tie up nicely.

 

 

Embsay is a classic Midland wayside station layout so if folk think you're close to it you can't be far wrong. Just that double slip giving a facing connection to the running line to weed out and replace with a single slip giving a trailing crossover and trailing connection to the goods yard. Once you've done that, you only need four signals - distants will certainly be off stage; quite possibly also the equivalent of Embsay's up starter (No. 4) as it needs to be a train length from the goods yard connection (points 18 at Embsay) to allow a train to set back into the goods yard without passing it. Then just the four ground signals that give access from the sidings on each side to the running lines.

[ianLMS]

Currently in the process of removing the offending double slip and will be replacing it with another single slip. This should now resolve the anomolies and get me back on track. I know it will change the signalling plan slightly, but not too much I hope.

 

Also trying my hand at fitting the point rodding from DCC concepts picked up at the York show. Will also work on the signal wires now I have a few components from Wizard to play with! 

[imt]

If you are changing things you could use the double slip at the other end of the goods loop at 23 to provide a trap (and maybe a head shunt if room?).  There seems to be an indication there already on your plan above, but maybe you intend just to simulate one and not bother further.

[ianLMS]

Thanks for that. Something else i need to look at and see if there is room. 

[imt]

24 minutes ago, ianLMS said:

Thanks for that. Something else i need to look at and see if there is room. 

 

It's by no means essential - but it would then look exactly like Embsay.  There might be room if you are prepared to sacrifice some of your nicely made embankment.  Some shunting room would be good if you could manage it - otherwise you will always be obstructing your blue main line.  Mind you many country stations did that - since of course most goods services were early or late and/or away from main passenger workings.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, imt said:

 

It's by no means essential 

 

A trap there is de rigueur. 

[imt]

50 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

A trap there is de rigueur. 

 

I quite agree, but he has already hacked at his layout twice under promptings on this thread, and there may well be limits to his patience. He COULD just simulate a trap with some pieces of rail.  He doesn't have to do as I was suggesting - though it would be more appropriate to do so..

[Compound2632]

True, I'm feeling rather sorry for Ian - the poor fellow has had his layout rebuilt by the diktat of the politbureau - his next project should be based on the railways of the USSR.

[ianLMS]

One thing i have is plenty of patience! Time and money on the other hand is a little shorter. As i will have two spare double slips in the drawer, sacrificing a bit of scenery is a small price to pay for a little more realistic track layout. I really appreciate the guidance and recommendations though. All this could have been easier if i had found RMWeb before building the layout mind! My next project is a micro layout in an old tv cabinet (3ft x 18 inch) taking up room in our study. Might work with 3mm or 2mm finescale but probably too small for OO/EM gauge. Before i do anything though, this time i will consult yourselves to make sure it is a small bit protypical in terms of track layout and signalling! 

Edited April 24, 2019 by ianLMS

[RailWest]

>>>>My next project is a micro layout in an old tv cabinet (3ft x 18 inch)...

 

Not something you can do with a modern flat-screen TV. unless you lay it down flat ! :-)

[ianLMS]

6 hours ago, RailWest said:

>>>>My next project is a micro layout in an old tv cabinet (3ft x 18 inch)...

 

Not something you can do with a modern flat-screen TV. unless you lay it down flat ! :-)

I am sure someone will try it though!!

 

This is an old mahogony two door, three drawer job the old heavy tv used to sit on.  As its enclosed i could use the top to mount the lights, fit legs underneath and use the drawer area for the fiddle yard/controller.  Pic shows it on end. Just a querky challenge!!!

Edited April 24, 2019 by ianLMS

[RailWest]

Ah, I misunderstood - I thought that you meant you had stripped the innards out of an old TV and were using just its case as a sort of diorama....

 

[ianLMS]

16 hours ago, RailWest said:

15 minutes ago, RailWest said:

Ah, I misunderstood - I thought that you meant you had stripped the innards out of an old TV and were using just its case as a sort of diorama....

 

 

Easy mistake to make lol!! I remember mum and dad owning an old tv which had a teak casing and u had to get up to change channel! Probably a challenve now to even find one like that let alone hack it about!