Collett 57' coaches - left hands and right hands

[spikey]

When Collett 57' bow-ended non-corridor coaches are described as "left hand " or "right hand", to what does that refer? 

[timbowilts]

As I now know, thanks to Miss Prism of this parish, on non corridor coaches it refers to the roof mounted ventilators!

These are not mounted centrally but offset to one side. By “handing” them you could assemble a set of coaches with all the ventilators in a line and still have the brake compartments at the outer ends and the first class compartments together in the middle.

 

Tim T

[spikey]

Good grief!  Well, thank you Tim.  I would never have worked that one out myself.

 

How strange though.  Unless you had OCD, which probably hadn't been invented in those days, why on earth would it have mattered which side the ventilators were on?

[Steamport Southport]

Almost certainly just a left over from the very similar corridor stock also made by Hornby. They probably just altered the drawings slightly to remove the corridor and gangways.

 

The corridor stock were designed so that when travelling west to east as most GWR trains did, the compartments were facing south for better sunlight. If you look at corridor train roofs then the ventilators are usually in the centre of the compartment rather than in the middle of the carriage. That's the reason they are slightly offset.

 

They were also balanced with items on the underframe such as battery boxes and brake cylinders.

 

They were kept in set formations on set routes so you wouldn't be worrying about what side the ventilators were on as long as they were correctly formed. Later on they were split up though.

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

There's been quite a bit of discussion about this in the Hornby New Tooling 57' Suburbans topic, and nobody has come up with am explanation of these coaches being handed.  There was a point to it with gangwayed stock but not suburbans.  It did mean that the 1st class was grouped in the centre of the set, but that does not explain the handing of the offset ventilators.

 

The similar profile 5 coach sets for South Wales, which had a single composite as the centre vehicle, were not handed.

[kandc_au]

So really, the handedness of these coaches only really applies if you are modelling the era when they were first released?
It seems as time when on, anything applied, so long as there were enough seats.
Would that be a fairly accurate summation?
 

khris

[spikey]

OK, so the "handing" in non-corridor stock might just be one of those things the GWR did for reasons now unkown.  So while I'm at it, what exactly is the deal with the "bow ended" stock?  Why was it bow-ended (which I've always taken to mean that the ends are slightly curved in plan view rather than straight across)?

[The Johnster]

10 hours ago, kandc_au said:

So really, the handedness of these coaches only really applies if you are modelling the era when they were first released?
It seems as time when on, anything applied, so long as there were enough seats.
Would that be a fairly accurate summation?
 

khris

Yes.

[The Johnster]

9 hours ago, spikey said:

OK, so the "handing" in non-corridor stock might just be one of those things the GWR did for reasons now unkown.  So while I'm at it, what exactly is the deal with the "bow ended" stock?  Why was it bow-ended (which I've always taken to mean that the ends are slightly curved in plan view rather than straight across)?

Yes, that's right.  The advantage in the case of gangwayed stock is that the gap between coaches to be bridged by the gangway is lessened.  Gresley, Thompson, Bulleid, Hawksworth, and BR mk1 gangwayed stock were bow ended, but not in the continuous curve style of the Colletts.  Collett of course build flat ended stock following the bowenders

[spikey]

48 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The advantage in the case of gangwayed stock is that the gap between coaches to be bridged by the gangway is lessened.

 

Strewth.  I'd never have thought of that, so I'm really glad I asked!

[The Johnster]

Nervous passengers were often intimidated by the dark, noisy, claustrophobic, and draughty gangways that moved unpredictably, and the companies were well aware of this.  You can try them out on preserved lines; bear in mind that this is not anything like representative of what it was like at 80-odd mph over a facing junction...

 

 

Comfort and passenger convenience was a marketable commodity, especially where companies had competing routes between the same points.  Toilets, catering facilities, not to mention the premium hairdressing and cinema coaches of the 1930s ECML flyers, all depended on gangway connections, and this was a problem for some passengers, and often these were the better off ones that were happy to shell out for premium services. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

33 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Nervous passengers were often intimidated by the dark, noisy, claustrophobic, and draughty gangways that moved unpredictably, and the companies were well aware of this.  You can try them out on preserved lines; bear in mind that this is not anything like representative of what it was like at 80-odd mph over a facing junction...

 

 

Comfort and passenger convenience was a marketable commodity, especially where companies had competing routes between the same points.  Toilets, catering facilities, not to mention the premium hairdressing and cinema coaches of the 1930s ECML flyers, all depended on gangway connections, and this was a problem for some passengers, and often these were the better off ones that were happy to shell out for premium services. 

 

You're right. I had quite forgotten that, as a child, I used to be terrified of going between coaches through the gangway.

[Steamport Southport]

The gangway was supposed to be locked together by clamps. There shouldn't be a gap....

 

This is the clamp to connect to a Pullman type of gangway. But the others were similar. 

 

http://lmsca.org.uk/lms-coaches/components/pullman-compatible-suspended-gangways/

 

 

Also here. The thing half way up the end locks together with the next carriage. Obviously the gangway isn't extended as it's not in use.

 

https://southdevonrailwayassociation.org/News-and-Press-Releases/Workshop_Reports/Coach-Corridor-Connection.html

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

That’s right, the adjoining gangways were clamped together and you couldn’t see outside.  To some, this just added to the isolation and claustrophobia.  American passengers were used to passing between vehicles outside in the rain, with a clear view of the track whizzing by beneath your feet.  Not sure which is scarier...

[57xx]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

The gangway was supposed to be locked together by clamps. There shouldn't be a gap....

 

I believe the "gap" Johnster is talking about is the distance between the ends of the carriages themselves,s not the ends of the gangways. Thus the length of the gangway itself is less when connected.

[unravelled]

If the bow ends were to reduce the corridor connector reach, then why curved ends on non corridor stock?

As with the handed ventilators, it suggests to me that common jigs were used, and it wasn't worth creating new jigs for centrally placed ones.

In the days of the Collett coach production, was the construction of the interior part of the coach integrated with the outside framing, or would it have been built into a completed coach body?

 

Dave

 

[The Johnster]

I'd say that it was most likely that the curved bow ends of the 57' suburbans was down to using parts and fittings standard to the gangwayed bowenders, but this does not explain handing the ventilators, as jigs would have had to have been specially made for them on the suburbans.

[kandc_au]

7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I'd say that it was most likely that the curved bow ends of the 57' suburbans was down to using parts and fittings standard to the gangwayed bowenders, but this does not explain handing the ventilators, as jigs would have had to have been specially made for them on the suburbans.

With the vents off centre on the suburbans....was it the same distance as on the corridor stock. (Don't have drawings to hand to check)

Khris

[spikey]

13 hours ago, The Johnster said:

... You can try them out on preserved lines ...

 

Fortunately I'm old enough to remember what they were like at the time - particularly around 1963 going to the buffet car whilst travelling over a big junction somewhere between York and Newcastle at a fair rate of knots ...

[melmerby]

On 28/03/2019 at 07:07, spikey said:

 

Fortunately I'm old enough to remember what they were like at the time - particularly around 1963 going to the buffet car whilst travelling over a big junction somewhere between York and Newcastle at a fair rate of knots ...

Worst coming back carrying hot drinks!