RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted April 6, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 6, 2019 (edited) The extra unused channels for bonding wires are interesting - maybe the manufacturing process has been changed slightly since this product was first designed. (Neither of those points look like the underside of the Code75 I'm looking at.) Anyway, it looks to me like the two closure rails and the frog are all bonded together by the wire that continues to become the dropper wire. And since there are no breaks in the closure rails you're going to have to cut new breaks in them yourself (equivalent to cutting the jumpers in the straight point) and bond the newly isolated ends to the stock rails (equiv. to making the bonds you describe above for the straight points). Like this: Orange lines are cuts, red and green are new bonding wires. Dashed showing alternative route. Does everyone agree? Edited April 6, 2019 by Harlequin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 4 hours ago, chuffinghell said: I know, I’ve been a draughtsman for 27 years although these days the rubber is on CAD...... I still use the eraser button quite a bit though I was for 30. Also CAD, but started on the boards. Retired 3 years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chuffinghell Posted April 6, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 6, 2019 14 minutes ago, 62613 said: I was for 30. Also CAD, but started on the boards. Retired 3 years ago. I too started on the boards, best way in my opinion hope you’re enjoying your retirement Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted April 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 7, 2019 I think the provision for isolating the frog was an improvement made at some point. The current code 75 large wyes have it but the short ones don't. (I may be a few years out of date.) The points on yours look to be a bigger distance away from the stock rail, so maybe there's enough clearance on them not to short. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andymsa Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 5 hours ago, BR60103 said: I think the provision for isolating the frog was an improvement made at some point. The current code 75 large wyes have it but the short ones don't. (I may be a few years out of date.) The points on yours look to be a bigger distance away from the stock rail, so maybe there's enough clearance on them not to short. As harliquins post explains it is highly recommended to have the new cuts in the closure rail, this will save lots of grief at a later date. When doing the cuts you must be careful not to catch the outer rails which is easy to do. I used to put some plasi card just over the outer rail for some protection and a visual indication I was getting to close. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcredfer Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 The older Peco points were like the "Y" points and had to be cut. You will need a fine saw to cut the switching rails [and spare blades if you are anything like me }. I bought, what is termed a Jeweller's Saw, which is really good and I was advised to fit the blades so as to make it a "draw" rather than "push" saw. That certainly worked well for me. Regards Julian 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chuffinghell Posted April 7, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 7, 2019 (edited) Thank you for everyone’s help I’ve also had a response back from Peco confirming that the Y point is of the old design “Thank you for your email The large Y turnout is of the previous design, and is slightly different to the newer design l/h and r/h turnouts, and as such does not have any wires to cut, and does not require any modification for use with a DCC controilled layout” Despite the above reply I still intend to cut the rails as recommended by you guys Chris Edited April 7, 2019 by chuffinghell 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcredfer Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 New Peco If I recall correctly, the Peco Electro-frog "upgrade" which included the wire connections of the Switch Rails and the Check rails [either side of the Vee] also included connecting the Check Rails to the Vee. ie... With the new ones one contact of the Switch Rail to one of the Running Rails, will power that rail, the Vee, the Check Rails and the other Switch Rail [which wouldn't matter as it is clear of the rolling stock wheels]. The silver wire to the Vee is not needed, if the Switch Rail wire connections are left. The cutting of those wires together with the wire bridging between the Running Rail and i'ts adjacent Switch Rail, is to improve reliability of power supply. The silver wire to the Vee, is also connected to the Check Rails and will power them as well. Old Peco So with the old ones the whole Switch Rail on one side, including the Check Rails would get power from whichever Running rail the Switch Rail contacted, the other rail being un-powered [not in contact with it's Running Rail]. Power for the Vee [only], would need to be switched through it's attached silver wire. Cutting / separating the Switch Rails from the Check Rails will also need some wire from the Frog Vee wire to the [now electrically disconnected] check rails, so they get the same Frog-switched power too. There are a couple of plates visible under the Check Rails, which can get wires soldered to them from the Vee power. Regards J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chuffinghell Posted April 7, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 7, 2019 (edited) Before you read any further please take into account my soldering skills are poo and I’m still practicing! Removed the plastic between the sleepers and bent some nickel silver wire poorly soldered the wire in place Top view wire painted where visible now invisible despite the pi** poor soldering that I’m sure someone will point out, I’ve checked the electrical conductivity/continuity and all seems well I will tackle the Y points once I’ve got hold of some replacement thin cutting discs for my Dremel Edited April 7, 2019 by chuffinghell 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcredfer Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 (edited) Soldering looks good to me. Nice and shiny, very tidy wire shapes, and a good smooth covering. With skills like that, the Y shouldn't prove much of a problem. Regards Julian Edited April 7, 2019 by jcredfer To many shifts! 1 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Kettlewell Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Good job. Another way to do it is to solder one long straight bit of wire across all four rails, then snip away the un-needed bits. This makes the job a bit easier as, if you use a piece of wire a few inches long, you can hold one end of the wire while you put the solder blobs on. Cheers... Alan 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 On 06/04/2019 at 12:05, chuffinghell said: I appreciate i could cut the rails myself to create the gap but I can’t understand why the large Y points don’t have the pre-cut rails The pre-cut rails are a newer idea. I think they added them when they needed to renew the tooling. I assume the Y's don't sell as well as the LH & RH so the old tooling has not worn out yet & has therefore not been replaced with the updated & improved design. As for your jumper links; they look tidy but instead of just linking the 2 rails together, why not use these as a connection directly to the bus? It will provide a better connection that from wherever though 1 or more rail joiners. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted April 8, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 8, 2019 I use a longer wire for the jumpers and run it down to the switch that powers the frog. But that makes it a little trickier to put the points down. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chuffinghell Posted April 8, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2019 5 hours ago, BR60103 said: I use a longer wire for the jumpers and run it down to the switch that powers the frog. But that makes it a little trickier to put the points down. I had considered doing that but I did think it would make laying the points a bit tricky Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcredfer Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 A thin wire in a small groove in the Sleepers, to the existing Frog Vee wire, is possibly the easiest. Regards J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chuffinghell Posted April 8, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, jcredfer said: A thin wire in a small groove in the Sleepers, to the existing Frog Vee wire, is possibly the easiest. Regards J I'm confused now, I thought that the existing wire at the frog went through the baseboard directly to the accessory switch on the point motor to change the frog polarity depending on position the point was set.........or have I misunderstood your comment? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Kettlewell Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, chuffinghell said: I'm confused now, I thought that the existing wire at the frog went through the baseboard directly to the accessory switch on the point motor to change the frog polarity depending on position the point was set.........or have I misunderstood your comment? Hi, You need three wires - 1 from the frog and one soldered to each stock rail. These three go to the switch for changing frog polarity. You can run the frog wire along the small grove so it's easier to see as you position the point over the hole(s) for the wires. They would all go down through the baseboard to your point motor accessory switch. For the stock rail wires it can be a good idea to attach them to the two small jumpers you've already attached as it's easier to solder them there than to a stock rail. Cheers .. Alan Edited April 8, 2019 by Alan Kettlewell 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chuffinghell Posted April 8, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Alan Kettlewell said: Hi, You need three wires - 1 from the frog and one soldered to each stock rail. These three go to the switch for changing frog polarity. You can run the frog wire along the small grove so it's easier to see as you position the point over the hole(s) for the wires. They would all go down through the baseboard to your point motor. For the stock rail wires it can be a good idea to attach them to the two small jumpers you've already attached as it's easier to solder them there than to a stock rail. Cheers .. Alan Thanks Alan, The groove thing that confused me (my brain hasn't kicked in yet) I was just going to drill a hole large enough to give a little wiggle room I intended to attach wires to the stock rails to the bus wires for power and take wires from the bus for the frog switching although it may be better/easier to attach separate wires to the jumpers just for frog switching as a number have suggested Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Kettlewell Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 Hi Chris, It's useful to know that the frog polarity switch doesn't PROVIDE power to the stock rail. It takes the supply FROM there and routes the pos or neg power to the frog depending on which way the points are set. So it's necessary to have power to the stock rails in the first place - and better not to rely on track joiners for this! This is easily done by a simple further connection to each side of the track bus. It sounds more complicated than it is and I can pop together a simple diagramme if you wish. Cheers … Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted April 8, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2019 The less soldering to the points (or bonding wires), the better. Less chance of ugly lumps of solder and less chance of melting plastic. So I think connecting the frog switch inputs to the power bus is the right way to go. I suggest making your stock rail connections in the same way as you do for plain track because then you have a simpler wiring procedure - you can get a rhythm going more easily. It's pretty easy to take the frog dropper wire straight down under the point unit through the baseboard with an oversized hole - the point unit plastic will cover the hole (unless you go crazy with your drill diameter!). 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chuffinghell Posted April 8, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Alan Kettlewell said: Hi Chris, It's useful to know that the frog polarity switch doesn't PROVIDE power to the stock rail. It takes the supply FROM there and routes the pos or neg power to the frog depending on which way the points are set. So it's necessary to have power to the stock rails in the first place - and better not to rely on track joiners for this! This is easily done by a simple further connection to each side of the track bus. It sounds more complicated than it is and I can pop together a simple diagramme if you wish. Cheers … Alan Hi Alan I appreciate the frog does not provide the power to the stock rails, apologies if I have mislead anyone, I have perhaps used the wrong terminology at some point I had planed to power the stock rails as normal and intended to simply tap into these wires to feed the frog via the switch of course Chris Edited April 8, 2019 by chuffinghell 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chuffinghell Posted April 8, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2019 4 minutes ago, Harlequin said: The less soldering to the points (or bonding wires), the better. Less chance of ugly lumps of solder and less chance of melting plastic. So I think connecting the frog switch inputs to the power bus is the right way to go. I suggest making your stock rail connections in the same way as you do for plain track because then you have a simpler wiring procedure - you can get a rhythm going more easily. It's pretty easy to take the frog dropper wire straight down under the point unit through the baseboard with an oversized hole - the point unit plastic will cover the hole (unless you go crazy with your drill diameter!). So do you think a Ø20 hole might be overkill? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chuffinghell Posted April 8, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2019 My intentions Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chuffinghell Posted April 8, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2019 Belt n braces 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Kettlewell Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 50 minutes ago, chuffinghell said: Hi Alan I appreciate the frog does not provide the power to the stock rails, apologies if I have mislead anyone, I have perhaps used the wrong terminology at some point I had planed to power the stock rails as normal and intended to simply tap into these wires to feed the frog via the switch of course Chris Sorry Chris - no intention of insulting intelligence. It looks like you're there now - good diagramme. I do it slightly simpler with less wires. I don't make a separate link for the jumpers but I use the bared wires that provide track power just with the ends bared. Less soldering this way methinks. Down below the board I link to the polarity switch as shown in my simple sketch. NB - this is just the way I do it 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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