LMS Fowler 3500 gallon tender air vents

[justin]

As originally designed the LMS Fowler 3500 gallon flush riveted tenders had the air vents situated in the coal space. This caused problems with dirt and coal dust getting into the tanks and tenders built from April 1932 (which also had snap head riveted tanks) had the vents at the back outside the coal space. A program was then started to move the vents on the flush riveted tanks to the rear outside the coal space but not all tenders were dealt with.

 

The question is when did BR stop doing this?

 

My question particularly relates to 4F no 44422. According to the LMR loco record card this received tender 3918 on 31.12.1960 (The WR engine record card records it as 3198 on 4.11.1960, the date is probably right but I think the numbers are in the wrong order as tender 3198 didn't have a water scoop and therefore shouldn't have had air vents either). A photo on Flickr of 44422 at Templecombe on 21.6.1961 shows the vents firmly in the coal space.

 

 

However by the time the loco reached Woodham Bros at Barry the vents were sited behind the coal space. The last date on the WR loco record card is 28.2.1964 and there is no mention of a tender change up to this date. The loco had a heavy general repair at Horwich between April and June 1963 but this seems a bit late for BR to be messing around moving tank vents.

 

The other alternative is an undocumented tender swap after February 1964. I have seen a photo showing the vents behind the coal space on 44422's tender in July 1964.

 

Has anyone got photos of 44422 immediately after it left Horwich in June 1963 as this might help.

[LMS2968]

I don't know about this specific loco or tender but not all tenders had the vents moved. The problem of coal dust ingestion was really only with those engines fitted with coal rails, in which the coal level was higher.

[davefrk]

Also some tenders had the various fittings but no actual waterscoop as they worked in areas that didn't have watertroughs. The one in the photo does have the scoop though as one can see the operating lever through the frame hole.

[Wickham Green]

On 30/03/2019 at 21:54, justin said:

As originally designed the LMS Fowler 3500 gallon flush riveted tenders had the air vents situated in the coal space. This caused problems with dirt and coal dust getting into the tanks and tenders built from April 1932 (which also had snap head riveted tanks) had the vents at the back outside the coal space. A program was then started to move the vents on the flush riveted tanks to the rear outside the coal space but not all tenders were dealt with.

 

The question is when did BR stop doing this?

 

My question particularly relates to 4F no 44422. According to the LMR loco record card this received tender 3918 on 31.12.1960 (The WR engine record card records it as 3198 on 4.11.1960, the date is probably right but I think the numbers are in the wrong order as tender 3198 didn't have a water scoop and therefore shouldn't have had air vents either). A photo on Flickr of 44422 at Templecombe on 21.6.1961 shows the vents firmly in the coal space.

 

 

However by the time the loco reached Woodham Bros at Barry the vents were sited behind the coal space. The last date on the WR loco record card is 28.2.1964 and there is no mention of a tender change up to this date. The loco had a heavy general repair at Horwich between April and June 1963 but this seems a bit late for BR to be messing around moving tank vents.

 

The other alternative is an undocumented tender swap after February 1964. I have seen a photo showing the vents behind the coal space on 44422's tender in July 1964.

 

Has anyone got photos of 44422 immediately after it left Horwich in June 1963 as this might help.

The other thing that might point to a tender swap is presence or absence of the tablet catcher clearly visible here ( or at least its mounting bolts if it was removed ).

Unfortunately - for us rivet / vent / bolt counters - there were innumerable tender swaps as the steam fleet was withdrawn : the better tenders selected to run for a few more months with the better locos and the 'rubbish' consigned to the furnaces .......... though some were lucky enough to end up at Barry.

[LMS2968]

 

19 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

The other thing that might point to a tender swap is presence or absence of the tablet catcher clearly visible here ( or at least its mounting bolts if it was removed ).

Unfortunately - for us rivet / vent / bolt counters - there were innumerable tender swaps as the steam fleet was withdrawn : the better tenders selected to run for a few more months with the better locos and the 'rubbish' consigned to the furnaces .......... though some were lucky enough to end up at Barry.

This was one of the S&D fleet so would have had a tablet catcher on that line. Its presence suggests that it is the tender from those days at least.

[Wickham Green]

42 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

 

This was one of the S&D fleet so would have had a tablet catcher on that line. Its presence suggests that it is the tender from those days at least.

Assuming the photo, above, is the 1961 Templecombe shot mentioned - yes.

[adb968008]

I don’t know if this helps, but here is 44422 at the Beehive Mill in Bolton (still stands today).

ive seen this picture several times, and whilst sure of its location, couldn’t understand how 44422 could have ended up 200 miles from its nearest home.

 

The vents are further back than your example...

 

It looks quite ex-works so probably fits ex-Horwich in your timeline, also note lack of shedcode plate.

 

Mike Morants site is a fantastic resource.

Edited April 1, 2019 by adb968008

[justin]

Hadn't thought to look at Mike Morant's pages. I agree it is a fantastic resource. 44422 had previously a light intermediate repair at Derby in November 1960 returning to traffic on 8.12.1960. Given the location and appearence I would be fairly confident the photo Mike has shows it on a running in turn after repair at Horwich in June 1963. As the vents are now behind the coal space perhaps they were moved at Horwich. An undocumented tender swap remains a possibility though the Western Region seemed to maintain their records until about September 1964  (there is a WR record card for 44422 at the National archive). Information on the LMR cards at the NRM is very patchy after 1960-61. 

[Combe Martin]

On ‎30‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 21:54, justin said:

As originally designed the LMS Fowler 3500 gallon flush riveted tenders had the air vents situated in the coal space. This caused problems with dirt and coal dust getting into the tanks and tenders built from April 1932 (which also had snap head riveted tanks) had the vents at the back outside the coal space. A program was then started to move the vents on the flush riveted tanks to the rear outside the coal space but not all tenders were dealt with.

 

The question is when did BR stop doing this?

 

My question particularly relates to 4F no 44422. According to the LMR loco record card this received tender 3918 on 31.12.1960 (The WR engine record card records it as 3198 on 4.11.1960, the date is probably right but I think the numbers are in the wrong order as tender 3198 didn't have a water scoop and therefore shouldn't have had air vents either). A photo on Flickr of 44422 at Templecombe on 21.6.1961 shows the vents firmly in the coal space.

 

 

However by the time the loco reached Woodham Bros at Barry the vents were sited behind the coal space. The last date on the WR loco record card is 28.2.1964 and there is no mention of a tender change up to this date. The loco had a heavy general repair at Horwich between April and June 1963 but this seems a bit late for BR to be messing around moving tank vents.

 

The other alternative is an undocumented tender swap after February 1964. I have seen a photo showing the vents behind the coal space on 44422's tender in July 1964.

 

Has anyone got photos of 44422 immediately after it left Horwich in June 1963 as this might help.

 

The Somerset & Dorset Remembered Part 1 - Bath to Evercreech Junction by Hugh Ballantyne, has on page 31 dated 20.9.1963 a good colour picture of 44222 coming down the bank into Bath on the 16.15 Up from Templecombe.

 

It's a bit odd, because whilst the vent looks further back than seen in the above photo, it still looks in front of the rear coal plate.

 

In another book, The Somerset & Dorset Railway 1935-1966 by Mike Arlett & David Lockett, on page 167 there's a good black & white photo of 44222 just coming into Evercreech Junc on the 3.20 Bath - Templecombe down, and dated 25.7.1964

 

On this one the vents definitely look behind the rear coal plate. 

[LMS2968]

Remember that not all tender swops made it on to the EHCs, and after around 1960  nor did works overhauls, boiler changes and even reallocations. Ideally you need the Engine History Cards, but even these give problems. I have many of these for the 8Fs. the only information on some of them is the engine number! 

[Rail-Online]

Hi,

There is a pic of it on the S&D at an unknown date here;

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p144309771/h814af4c3#h814af4c3

 

and it clearly has the vents outside the tender coal space. It also has an additional Overhead warning flash on the rear coal space divider, but of course this could have been added when the loco visited Horwich and had the vents moved.  The Bolton photo also has the late emblem as opposed to the early crest in 1961 so clearly it was either a different tender or re-painted. Does anyone know the identity of the one preserved?  If it is the one that was at Bittern in a terrible state in the 1990s then it clearly is the one recorded with the loco at Gloucester here with the damaged running board: 

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p144309771/he5d2a2a#he5d2a2a

 

 

 

 

Cheers Tony

Edited May 29, 2020 by Rail-Online

[Rail-Online]

Found another photo of it at Templecombe in 1964 with damaged tender running plate and vents outside the coal space

 

https://www.anistr.com/media/646b0fd6-d13a-4e50-a909-f9f42c9dc25b-steam-loco-fowler-4f-44422-templecombe

 

Clearly damage like this did not stop it being used!

 

Tony

[Marshall5]

3 hours ago, Rail-Online said:

Hi,

There is a pic of it on the S&D at an unknown date here;

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p144309771/h814af4c3#h814af4c3

 

and it clearly has the vents outside the tender coal space. It also has an additional Overhead warning flash on the rear coal space divider, but of course this could have been added when the loco visited Horwich and had the vents moved.  The Bolton photo also has the late emblem as opposed to the early crest in 1961 so clearly it was either a different tender or re-painted. Does anyone know the identity of the one preserved?  If it is the one that was at Bittern in a terrible state in the 1990s then it clearly is the one recorded with the loco at Gloucester here with the damaged running board: 

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p144309771/he5d2a2a#he5d2a2a

 

 

 

 

Cheers Tony

The tender now attached to 44422 isn't the one with which it went to Barry.  When purchased for preservation 44422's tender was left behind at Barry and replaced by #3978 which had been in use as a sludge carrier at Bescot and had coal rails and vents in the rear position.  Ref:   http://www.ten.rhrp.org.uk/tens/TenderInfo.asp?Ref=117                                                                                                                                                    Of the Fowler tenders at Barry 42765 also left hers there whilst 44123 and 42859 took theirs with them when preserved. The latter is now scrapped and most of 44123's will be scrapped when her replacement is completed.  Of the derelict pair which remained at Barry one went to the new-build Patriot and the other went with 48518.  Parts of the latter may also been incorporated into 45551's new tender which is mostly new  So there is a 50/50 chance on which one came from 44422!  Possibly if you trawl through the RHRP tender records or the Unknown Warrior website you might find a clue.

Edit: This photo https://www.flickr.com/photos/camperdown/8217689059   shows that 44422's tender at Barry was the same one as referred to above - still with damaged valance and tablet catcher fittings.                         

Further edit:  The RHRP tender records state that tender # 3918 arrived at Barry behind 44422 and # 3446 (with coal rails) was the one behind 42765.  Both are now recorded as "scrapped" with some parts incorporated into 45551's new tender,

Ray.

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Marshall5
Additional info.