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The Johnster

W 207 W, a reworking of a K's auto trailer.

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More progress today; the Milliput has gone off hard, so I've been rubbing it down smooth, and painted the inside.  Dark grey floor and upholstery, cream walls for cab, vestibule, and luggage compartment. dark brown for seat backs and bench dividers and saloon end walls and sides.  I'm not going to worry too much about the saloon doors from the vestibule, or the one I assume led into the cab from the front saloon because there's a gap between the seats on that end bulkhead, as I doubt I'll be able to see them once the roof's on through the smaller window area.  I'll do the cab to saloon door, though, as this can be seen through the cab windows.  The plan in Lewis shows what might be a sliding door here; whatever it is supposed to represent it's not a solid bulkhead.  I assume there were sliders from the vestibule to the saloons as well, as no door opening arcs are marked.

 

Having done the inside of the cab front, I've glued it back on (Gorilla Superglue) and am ready once the interior paint's gone off properly to do the first coat of the exterior 1949 crimson.  I have a pot with probably not enough in it, so will not start until I've been to town and bought a new one in Antics.

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A very smart young lady in a very clean (they always are) UPS van has just delivered my Stafford Road/Shapeways fishbelly bogies.  They've come all the way from Eindhoven, which makes the postage seem very reasonable.  I've had a look and am very pleased with them, good, crisp, prints with plenty of rived detail and no flash at all.  There is a very slight texture to the surface, but I am sure this will mostly disappear when I paint them.  I've decided to be lazy and fit these bogies to the A31, and the ones for the E116, which I now know it to be, will be fitted to that model which they were meant for in the first place; swapping bogies when you don't have to sounds like asking for trouble...

 

I've also given the bodyshell a squirt of rattlecan matt varnish to assist keying for the crimson.

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I've been comparing the Stafford/Shapeways bogies to the K's ones with the E116 kit, and the photos of W 207 W in Lewis.  There are differences and anomalies that I am going to have to live with.  The ones in the photo are, of course, correct, but the Staffords had a step moulded, I mean printed, which does not appear on W 207 W's bogies, about 6 inches above the tiebar.  I could of course cut it out but there is bolster detail that it hides which would then be missing.  The K's whitemetal bogies have no tiebar or step, and a different pattern of rivets.  

 

Not sure what this means; was there more than one version of the fishbelly bogie or is the K's version incorrect?  Should there be tiebars and a step on the K's bogies (I can probably add those).  Is it that fishbelly bogies for Gloucester RCW steam railmotors converted to auto trailers were slightly different to the Swindon product, or did Swindon send bogies up to Gloucester to complete the railmotors?  Should I really worry that much!

 

From the Lewis photos, though, the Stafford bogies are much closer than the K's ones for W 207 W and I will be using them unaltered.  They run well with Hornby coach wheels and no top hat bearings, as did the original K's ones for the incorrect Americans for this coach, Romford wheels I think.  But the Romfords are a bit too long in the axle for the Staffords.  I have a set of 4 axles of these for the E116 as well, and may find a home one day for the Americans, perhaps beneath a Siphon.

 

I have one small moan about the Staffords; they are printed in white plastic.  Black would have been better, surely!  But it would probably have been gloss, and I'd still have complained...

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The K's Fishbellies ( and the David Geen ones) should have ties. Here are some close ups of surviving fishbelly bogies.

Mike Wiltshire

1996366536_Fishbelly1.jpg.e1f24e03869f337530b8a0fb57f6a47b.jpg1534898724_Fishbelly2.jpg.de629329b202d15f0e4be7fd5872e244.jpg327839988_Fishbelly3.jpg.88a0440fa541b00d2371ef94d38a1406.jpg386271195_Fishbelly4.jpg.47a76e9c4b7a6f7b6b45614f136c0903.jpg2112953394_Fishbelly6.jpg.aa24afe85a5441d9448b65072c8406a2.jpg1102540275_Fishbelly5.jpg.037ee71eabeacb1cacfa99a54cacb245.jpg

 

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3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I've been comparing the Stafford/Shapeways bogies to the K's ones with the E116 kit, and the photos of W 207 W in Lewis.  There are differences and anomalies that I am going to have to live with.  The ones in the photo are, of course, correct, but the Staffords had a step moulded, I mean printed, which does not appear on W 207 W's bogies, about 6 inches above the tiebar.  I could of course cut it out but there is bolster detail that it hides which would then be missing.  The K's whitemetal bogies have no tiebar or step, and a different pattern of rivets.  

 

Not sure what this means; was there more than one version of the fishbelly bogie or is the K's version incorrect?  Should there be tiebars and a step on the K's bogies (I can probably add those).  Is it that fishbelly bogies for Gloucester RCW steam railmotors converted to auto trailers were slightly different to the Swindon product, or did Swindon send bogies up to Gloucester to complete the railmotors?  Should I really worry that much!

 

From the Lewis photos, though, the Stafford bogies are much closer than the K's ones for W 207 W and I will be using them unaltered.  They run well with Hornby coach wheels and no top hat bearings, as did the original K's ones for the incorrect Americans for this coach, Romford wheels I think.  But the Romfords are a bit too long in the axle for the Staffords.  I have a set of 4 axles of these for the E116 as well, and may find a home one day for the Americans, perhaps beneath a Siphon.

 

I have one small moan about the Staffords; they are printed in white plastic.  Black would have been better, surely!  But it would probably have been gloss, and I'd still have complained...

 

Glad you like them. From the drop down when ordering you can select them in black, albeit £1 or so more for each. The black version is not "processed": I've lost track of Shapeways changing product naming but probably that means has a rougher finish.

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Back home and able to look through the binders. The K's 9ft Fishbelly does not look that bad. I have put up a David Geen to compare nad considering 50 years sepaprate the two. I think K's did a good job. It just needs the tie bars adding (as with other kits).

Diagram A31 which also ran with 7ft bogies. The challenge with 207 is, the image I have,  it ran with the rarer shorter  8ft Fishbelly and an I do not know of anyone who produces them.

 

Mike Wiltshire

1731949270_fishbellies.jpg.3fab359ca7f232256170a19d2eb65c85.jpg

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O dear.  Well, I'm sticking to my decision and using the Staffords on the auto trailer and the K's, without footboards but with a tie bar added, on the E116 kit they are designed for, despite the length not being correct for W 207 W; any attempt to shorten the Staffords or the K's by a modeller of my ability is asking for trouble! 

 

Some A31s had Collett 7' bogies as Mike says, and I was at one time considering doing this using spare bogies from a withdrawn from service Airfix B set, but was seduced by the idea of having a different type of bogie on the layout and 207's plated toplights, a very 'BR 1950s' appearance that suits the already heavy appearance of these coaches.  I could have gone for 204 with American bogies but it was an early withdrawal and had a 'Swindon' door that I bottled at cutting out.  Another point against the Collett 7 footers is that they are pale shadows compared to the lovely ones on the new Hornby 57' Suburbans which will show up their shortcomings on the layout.  

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I've just provided a screed about bogies over on the E116 K's B set kit topic, and the upshot is that I will be using the K's cast whitemetal bogies from this kit under W 207 W, with added tiebars whatever I said before.  Currently resting my eyes as I'm putting the numbers on, a job that I find very fiddly and tense, but once finished the coach will have a proper identity and I'll be able to spray a topcoat of rattlecan matt varnish on, and she'll be ready for glazing!  Does anyone know anyone who makes transfers for the 'TRAILER' lettering that is just above the solebar at the left hand end of the coach on each side; it's way too small for me to do in individual letters!

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Spraying done, we are now ready to start on the glazing, but it's too nice a day to be indoors modelling!  Maybe later this evening.

 

I've run out of Ws, and she's not got the suffix W on one side yet.  HMRS transfers are out of stock everywhere due to the indisposition of their Transfer Sales Manager, hopefully temporarily.  In the meantime I've ordered a sheet of BR coach numbers and prefix/suffix letters from Fox, which will do for this and the E116.  It'll arrive when it arrives, and I'll put the remaining W on and dab a layer of matt varnish to seal it.  The no smoking triangles will have to wait for HMRS to be back up and running as I've run out of those, too.  The sheet is on order but I'm not holding my breath.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Spraying done, we are now ready to start on the glazing, but it's too nice a day to be indoors modelling!  Maybe later this evening.

 

I've run out of Ws, and she's not got the suffix W on one side yet.  HMRS transfers are out of stock everywhere due to the indisposition of their Transfer Sales Manager, hopefully temporarily.  In the meantime I've ordered a sheet of BR coach numbers and prefix/suffix letters from Fox, which will do for this and the E116.  It'll arrive when it arrives, and I'll put the remaining W on and dab a layer of matt varnish to seal it.  The no smoking triangles will have to wait for HMRS to be back up and running as I've run out of those, too.  The sheet is on order but I'm not holding my breath.

 

4BL0171.JPG.ee8a10c9ea5c1482285c68e065c2d799.JPG

 

A low res. image to avoid cloning; covers most / all(?) RTR ex-GWR coaches.

 

I might be induced to add some TRAILER lettering if so requested.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm

 

PS. I can also supply transfer sheets for all your other BR coach marking requirements.

Edited by cctransuk

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Thank you John.  I'd certainly be interested in a few 'TRAILER' transfers if you did them, and I'm fairly certain it's not just me.  

 

The numbers are useful for RTR, but not for these kit coaches (unless I cut and shut of course), but I'm wanting some RTR auto trailer numbers as well; will investigate your site.

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Posted (edited)

Have noted the serial numbers and I'll be putting in an order come pension day (Wednesday) for sheets BL 171 ex-GW coaches and BL 34 no smoking and first class sausages.  Think some cut and shut transfers from BL 171 will be suitable for the E116.  Thanks again Mr Isherwood sir!

Edited by The Johnster

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In first class sausage rolls, freshly baked, of course.   

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Transfers ordered from that nice Mr Isherwood, who has been more than helpful.  Next job now is glazing, and we've just come inside from barbying First Class Sausages and are going out a'debauching soon, so not tonight!

 

I may have to cut a notch at the top of the seat backs to accommodate the glazing strips; the alternative is cutting each one to fit which seems a lot of faff.  It's getting close to bogie time, and I've already made up the K's frames from the E116 kit.  These run well with the Romford disc coach wheels that came with this kit in the American bogies, but I need to add a tiebar to match the photos in Lewis.  

 

The very last job will be fixing the roof, and I will not be doing this permanently for some time, as passengers and a cab detailing kit need to go in there first, and possibly a driver.  It will be painted grey and weathered, though; it is currently matt black and while this looked ok with the GW livery, in crimson the thing looks too much like a 1950s London Transport coach for my taste...

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Posted (edited)

Meanwhile, on a warm spring day on the patio of a ground floor flat at the back of a Victorian terraced house on the mean streets of inner city Cardiff (think dub reggae though open windows a block or so away and a general aroma of marijuana),  The Johnster (for it is he) does a bit of absent minded potching* with the plants, clears up the mess from yesterday's barbecue, and does a bit more spray painting in the high tech cardboard paint booth perched on the top of the cast Iron chimenea.  Pausing frequently for a sit down and a cup of tea and never even breaking into heavy breathing, never mind a sweat, he's put a first coat of grey rattlecan acrylic primer on his fishbellies.  There are 4 of them, a pair of cast whitemetal K's from the E116 kit for this coach and a pair of 3D prints from Stafford Road Works/Shawplan.  He was a little worried about how the prints would take the paint but everything seems fine.

 

He took phone photos earlier and attaches one, showing the current state of play on W 207 W.

 

IMG_1320.jpg

 

 

*One of my favourite South Wales words, it means semi-aimless pottering about, tidying up, pottering, faffing.  It frequently achieves quite a bit, almost by accident.

Edited by The Johnster
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Posted (edited)

Another tea break update. 

 

We’ve got as far as cutting a notch in the seat backs as a rebate for glazing strips, so there’s no reason that the coach can’t be glazed this evening.  Except...

 

I’ve replaced the numbers with better ones from Cambridge Transfers, but run into a small problem and will have to do them again.  The instructions state that they have to be applied to a clean gloss surface, and I avoid gloss surfaces to the greatest possible extent in my modelling.  The Cambridge transfers I’ve applied to W 194 W, a Hornby A28/30 repainted in acrylic Matt crimson, have gone on without any issue at all, and have been sealed in with Matt acrylic varnish, but I’ve come unstuck with the A31, painted in exactly the same way in the same paint.  The carrier film for the transfers is showing up opaque. 

 

It was fine until I sprayed the varnish on.  I’m guessing the some reaction has generated air bubbles beneath the carrier film, but the reason is not really important; I need a rethink.  

 

I may may have to paint strip the coach and start again from scratch, with a gloss finish this time.   Or I may get away with overspraying gloss varnish, re-applying the transfers, spraying another coat of gloss  to seal them and the overspraying that with matt. 

 

As there’s no saving of work to be had from not trying this, as if it goes wrong I’ll have to start again from scratch anyway. I have another possibility to investigate first, as I’ve also got a sheet of Fox BR coach numbers, but I suspect that these may react the same as the Cambridge. 

 

Anyway, I’m holding fire on the glazing for now; no point in doing it tonight if there’s going to be more paint about!

 

I can still make progress with the bogies, though!

Edited by The Johnster

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The instructions state that they have to be applied to a clean gloss surface, and I avoid gloss surfaces to the greatest possible extent in my modelling.

...............

The carrier film for the transfers is showing up opaque.

 

There is a very good reason why the instructions emphasise the need for a gloss surface  - and I'm afraid that you have discovered it.

 

A matt surface is, microscopically, a series of peaks resembling the Alps; it is impossible to apply a waterslide transfer over such a surface without trapping air underneath, within the 'valleys' between the peaks.

 

By contrast, a gloss surface is as near dead flat as makes no difference; it is very difficult to apply a waterslide transfer to such a surface and trap air underneath.

 

None of this is apparent until you apply varnish over the transfer.

 

There is NO reaction involved; simply the incompatibility between a rough, matt surface and a flat waterslide transfer; some people insist on learning this the hard way! Waterslide transfers MUST be applied to a gloss finish - some modellers think that they know better; they find out in due course that they don't. The desired surface finish can be applied AFTER the transfers have been applied and sealed.

 

Sorry, but instructions are written to assist modellers; not to be ignored.

 

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

Edited by cctransuk
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Looks like a patch at least of gloss to apply the numbers to; your instructions are clear enough and no blame can be attached to you; this is entirely my fault.  As you said, thought I knew better!  Microscopic air bubbles are exactly what it looks like; at least I now know that my water based Matt varnish is not reacting with them. 

 

Luckily there are plenty of numbers and Ws to replace my first attempt with.

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More setbacks today, though I’ve made up for it with progress on the E116.  Tried putting Romford wheels in the cast whitemetal fishbelly bogies from the E116 kit, and they fit and run well enough, but one of the bogies is a bit out of square/true, and the other one is worse.  

 

Back to to the drawing board, or at any rate a level surface to rebuild them on.  Might be worth cheating and just using the sideframes on MJT. 

 

I’m all modelled out for now and need to recuperate with a bit of operating.  

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I went back to the A31 today, and have come to some decisions.  I will order new Shapeways fishbellies for it, and cut the footboards off.  They will be still too long, as 207's fishbellies are 9' and these are 10', as are the K's they are replacing, but there is only so much that this t*rd can be polished.  I've taken these apart and re-assembled them a bit more square and true, and they may yet have a purpose to fulfill on a future project, but the deciding factor is that the NEM pockets that come with the Shapeways prints are less unsightly than the K's coupling bars, which in any case would have to adapted, i.e, bodged, to take tension lock couplings.  

 

I've had a go at glazing it with 'Glue'n'Glaze', which is not really designed for windows this size.  Applied heavily, it seems to work, though, touch wood (he says touching his head), and is drying out as I type.  I am determined not to look at it for several hours so that I can be either fully disappointed or delighted with the result.  I haven't done the cab front windows yet, and don't think I'll be able to get away with G'n G for those!  If it works it'll go some way to disguising the thickness of the K's whitemetal body sides.

 

The original, incorrect except for 204 which had different vestibule doors, K's American bogies have been tried under an old Airfix Siphon H, but will be replaced by Shapeways prints for the same reason, the NEM pockets.  

 

I'd become a bit disheartened with the A31, which is never going to be a brilliant scale model of anything and is riddled with compromise, but I'm feeling a bit more positive about it now.  It is what it is and I've made serious improvements to be proud of, and it'll be a useful addition to the stock for Cwmdimbath.

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Johnster, the Stafford Road 3d fisshbelly bogies are advertised a 9’ on Shapeways. Which ones are you looking at?

I’m about to order a set to go under my A7 autotrailer

Tim T

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Senior moment, again.  A31 had 8’ fishbellies, the K’s and Shapeways are 9’. 

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The glazing seems to have worked, so far anyway.  

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Not perfect, but it’ll do. With the coach glazed, the bodyshell’s more or less done, and I must pay attention to the bogies.  These will be Stafford Road Works/Shapeways 9’ Fishbellies, a foot too long but to my mind the best available, with the foot boards cut off. I’ve ordered them, and they will take about 3 weeks, so not much will happen until they arrive.  Hornby wheels, a coat of primer and black, tension lock couplings, and the coach will be in service.  Cwmdimbath will finally have a panelled auto trailer!

 

A little will happen, actually.  I want to re-do the numbers and the cab front has been taken off for glazing.  I’m not going to be able to get away with Glue’n Glaze for this, and it’ll be conventionally ‘back glazed’ with clear plasticard.  

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