LMS 2P upgrade in print

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi,

 

Does anyone recall the upgrading the body of either a Hornby/Airfix 2P or maybe the rebuilding of the 4F might be useful? Our starting point will be the latest iterration of the loco driven 2P to be rebuilt for a nascent 50s SDJR layout.

 

We think that a cosmetic upgrade of the loco body has been featured in print somewhere but cannot recall where.

 

Cheers

 

John 'Jack' Benson

 

 

[Guest Jack Benson]

OK,

 

The reason why the question is the Group's acquisition of a loco-drive Hornby 2P. One of us had a faint memory of an upgrade to its Mainline predecessor  which involved removal of the boiler fittings and replacement of the chassis with a Comet set of etchings.

 

 

Why we bought it?

 

We need a 2P but we are aware of the less than enthusiastic reception at its release but it has its qualities;

it was very cheap, works well, plus a 3-car set and the finish is superb.  However both the chimney and dome look odd, Colin @ Alan Gibson can still supply a choice of two different castings, the only problem is which castings to order? And that gap between loco and tender needs serious attention.

 

Finally, an odd question:-

Is there a definitive list of individual locos that have regularly worked on the S&DJR,  not classes (much too easy) but individuals?

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

 

[Poor Old Bruce]

4 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

And that gap between loco and tender needs serious attention.

 

That's the easy bit. Either a re-bent paper clip using the existing mountings or a staple on the loco and a bit of bent wire on the tender.

[pH]

7 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

However both the chimney and dome look odd ... 

 

What is unusual about the chimney? Do you mean it's unusual for the Somerset and Dorset? I can't say anything about the dome, but 40602 was a Scottish Region engine, and many of those kept this earlier design of chimney (as did some ScR Compounds). See the picture of 40638 on this page.

 

https://lmsrlocomotives.livejournal.com/1855.html

[Guest Jack Benson]

1 hour ago, pH said:

 

What is unusual about the chimney? Do you mean it's unusual for the Somerset and Dorset? I can't say anything about the dome, but 40602 was a Scottish Region engine, and many of those kept this earlier design of chimney (as did some ScR Compounds). See the picture of 40638 on this page.

 

https://lmsrlocomotives.livejournal.com/1855.html

 

40602 will become a S&DJR loco, the dome is incorrectly tapered and the chimney is a wee bit undernourished.

 

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

 

[asmay2002]

Actually I think what you mean is that you need a Stanier era chimney and dome rather than the Fowler originals.

 

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hello,

 

The penny has just dropped, the written article on upgrading the Mainline 2P appears in George Dent's - Detailing and Modifying RTR Locos Vol2.

 

Colin of Alan Gibson Models can supply suitable boiler fittings and the 2P kit is still available.

 

The problem seems to be sourcing suitable items, small specialist suppliers are becoming increasingly scarce.

 

Cheers and thanks for the advice.

 

Jack Benson

 

 

 

[Brocp]

Hi Jack, what bits and peices are you after specifically?

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hello Brocp,

 

Thank you for responding.

 

The main issues are chimney and dome, we unsuccessfully tried Alan Gibson but struck gold at Branchlines with both items. Otherwise it isn't too bad, the tender/loco chasm will be addressed and surgery to the boiler will be interesting, to say the least.

 

Cheers

 

Jack

[Brocp]

Good to hear Jack, how did you get in touch with branchlines?

[Guest Jack Benson]

In person, at Trainwest.

 

It was a lovely, well organised event. Nice to see Hubert Carr, a lovely gentleman.

 

Cheers

 

Jack Benson

[Brocp]

Does anyone have a website ir email address for them? Bit hard for me to go to exhibitions as I live in Australia.

[Wheatley]

Apart from the chimney and dome the other upgrades worth doing on the body are replacing the footballs holding the handrails on and either thinning down the visible edges on the steps or replacing with brass (Mainly Trains etches). The tapered dome was a mould-release thing before extensive hand finishing pushed RTR prices through he roof, the rest of it is pretty much spot on.  The criticism on it's last release was mainly down to Hornby putting it in the main range at main range prices when the tooling is 40 years old and fully amortised.  

[Guest Jack Benson]

On 15/04/2019 at 01:14, Brocp said:

Good to hear Jack, how did you get in touch with branchlines?

http://branchlines.blogspot.com/

 

I doubt if they actually have a website

 

Cheers

 

Jack

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi,

An update

 

George Dent penned the definitive upgrade article for Model Rail August 2009 whilst MORILL Dec 1995 has an informative portrait of ScR 2Ps. Did Model Railways publish a 2P article in their wonderful 'Portrait' series of articles?

 

Alan Gibson seems to overwhelmed at the moment, all the other components were sourced from the ever helpful Andy at Wizard Models.

 

Cheers

 

Jack.

[cctransuk]

On 16/04/2019 at 07:35, Wheatley said:

 The criticism on it's last release was mainly down to Hornby putting it in the main range at main range prices when the tooling is 40 years old and fully amortised.  

 

I think that I am right in saying that the Hornby 2P is significantly different from the original Airfix version.

 

Does it not now have a driven loco chassis, rather than the original tender drive?

 

If price was a major consideration, I would not have thought that Airfix 2Ps were in short supply on Ebay.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Guest Jack Benson]

22 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I think that I am right in saying that the Hornby 2P is significantly different from the original Airfix version.

 

Does it not now have a driven loco chassis, rather than the original tender drive?

 

If price was a major consideration, I would not have thought that Airfix 2Ps were in short supply on Ebay.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

  

 

John,

 

The current version is, indeed, loco driven, DCC ready, 8-pin socket in the tender.

 

Performance seems to be on a par with the their T9 but the tender/loco interface is ill-considered with the main loom passes through the same slot as the over-long drawbar and this prevents the loco body being totally removed without surgery. 

 

The following need rectification:-

Dome

Chimney

Handrails 

Fall plate and tender drawbar (plus loom)

Wakefield lubricators

Bogie wheels (and bogie)

 

However it isn't a bad model of its time (1980s), ours was an eBay bargain at less than £50, when finished it will be a useful loco.

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

 

[Wheatley]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I think that I am right in saying that the Hornby 2P is significantly different from the original Airfix version.

 

Does it not now have a driven loco chassis, rather than the original tender drive?

 

If price was a major consideration, I would not have thought that Airfix 2Ps were in short supply on Ebay.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

The chassis is indeed loco drive and is infinitely better than the airfix comedy tender drive. The tender chassis is also new and picks up on all wheels. The paint job is to current Hornby standards. 

 

Everything else is the old airfix tooling to the extent that, should you wish, you can use the loco driving wheels off the airfix version to replace the grooved traction tyred  drivers on the Hornby one.

 

I should make clear that, as the owner of two of the newer Hornby ones I don't/didn't subscribe to the "It's too expensive view !

[Yankee]

On ‎10‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 12:50, Jack Benson said:

OK,

 

The reason why the question is the Group's acquisition of a loco-drive Hornby 2P. One of us had a faint memory of an upgrade to its Mainline predecessor  which involved removal of the boiler fittings and replacement of the chassis with a Comet set of etchings.

 

 

Why we bought it?

 

We need a 2P but we are aware of the less than enthusiastic reception at its release but it has its qualities;

it was very cheap, works well, plus a 3-car set and the finish is superb.  However both the chimney and dome look odd, Colin @ Alan Gibson can still supply a choice of two different castings, the only problem is which castings to order? And that gap between loco and tender needs serious attention.

 

Finally, an odd question:-

Is there a definitive list of individual locos that have regularly worked on the S&DJR,  not classes (much too easy) but individuals?

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

 

 

Having recently carried out a simple detailing job on one of these, hopefully for use on the Bournemouth West layout, has anyone else noticed that the counter balance weight on the loco drive models are on the wrong wheel. When purchasing a spare set from Peter Spares or elsewhere you will get the weight on the correct wheel, but the traction tire will be on the none driven rear wheel.

 

Mine is based on 40564 on Templecombe shed from a photo in the “The S&D in Colour” page 114.

 

Reducing the tender to engine gap was an easy fix, see draw bar picture.

 

This is a TTS sound fitted 2P and notice how the engine to tender wiring does not use the draw bar cut outs to route the wiring

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi Yankee,

 

Did you remove the odd slotted appendage for the drawbar or was it missing when bought? It effectively prevents the loco body being removed due to the routing of the cables.

 

Is it possible to acquire wheelsets devoid of traction tyres? 

 

Thank you for sharing your upgrade.

 

Jack

[Yankee]

Hi Jack

 

I was lucky because on the TTS version none of the wires use the slotted appendage to route the wires between loco and tender so the loco body could  be removed without having to cut the wires or remove the odd slotted appendage.

If doing a none TTS model I think I would cut the wires and drill a hole in the keeper plate to reroute the loco wires and fit a micro  plug between loco and tender. The tender already has an access hole just to the left of the draw bar  that can be used to reroute the wires there if necessary. If doing that you could reduce the wiring from 6 to 4 wires by teeing together the loco front bogie and main wheel pickup wires within the loco body. I had planned to do that before realising the TTS model was different.

I did it fact find I had to cut the wires going to the loco keeper plate wipers because I couldn’t get enough slack in them to pull the keeper plate away far enough from the chassis to remove the main wheels.

 

I looked into a none traction tyre option and thought by buying a X6472 spare set of wheels it could be accomplished, but no. Hornby seem only to make the none traction tyre wheel with the balance weight, so you would end up with weights on both sets of wheels. Even then you would have to remove the wheels on one axle to re-quarter them.

The pictures below shows the difference between the geared wheel on the model as supplied and the one from the X6472 Hornby spare set.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Yankee

[Combe Martin]

I know a lot of modellers don't like traction tyres, but on this loco they havnt been a problem for me, but rather a bonus.  My new 2p turns out to be the most powerful loco  I have.  I had it hauling a mixed bag of 18 coaches before my layout couldn't cope with any more.  Previously my most powerful locos were a Bachman 9F and Hornby rebuilt WC both of which will pull 15.   If modelling an  S&D loco in BR days, If think I'm correct in saying that none were lined, so if you'r going to renumber one you'll need to scrape the lining off (easy on the old Mainline version but not so on the Hornby one) and/or respray it too. 

[Barclay]

Just caught up with this thread and I notice your query on which loco's were based in the area you wish to model?

 

There's a great website called 'shedbash' which has loads of info on loco's observed at various sheds at various times, and their actual shed allocations. So, for instance, you type shedbash Bath into Google and it gives you Bath Green Park, with snapshots down the years of which loco's were at the shed when it was visited, and where they were allocated at that time (Mostly 'home' loco's of course).

 

Hope this helps.

[DCB]

On 10/04/2019 at 12:50, Jack Benson said:

OK,

 

The reason why the question is the Group's acquisition of a loco-drive Hornby 2P. One of us had a faint memory of an upgrade to its Mainline predecessor  which involved removal of the boiler fittings and replacement of the chassis with a Comet set of etchings.

 

 

Why we bought it?

 

We need a 2P but we are aware of the less than enthusiastic reception at its release but it has its qualities;

it was very cheap, works well, plus a 3-car set and the finish is superb.  However both the chimney and dome look odd, Colin @ Alan Gibson can still supply a choice of two different castings, the only problem is which castings to order? And that gap between loco and tender needs serious attention.

 

Finally, an odd question:-

Is there a definitive list of individual locos that have regularly worked on the S&DJR,  not classes (much too easy) but individuals?

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

 

I seem to remember the Ivo Peters books on the S+D have lists of locos which worked/ were shedded on the S+D in various years.

From the pictures the biggest problem with the locos is not the chimney and dome but that the body sits too high, so high I wonder if the body was actually screwed down.    The traction tyre "thing" should be sortable by substituting trailing wheel tyres for the grooved driving wheel tyres.  I have removed tyres from several recentish Hornby wheels to reuse on other locos so I assume the 2P will be similar.

I am hoping the Duchess tyres are the same as the T9 and Schools as our T9 has got progressively more prone to derail as its traction tyres wear,  its party piece is turning the corner on diamond crossings, and the schools looks set to follow it.  I ended up with a Duchess chassis from a job lot with things I actually wanted!

[Dunsignalling]

Finding which 2Ps worked over the S&D regularly is straightforward. Just get hold of an Ian Allan Locoshed Book (most have been included in Combined Volume reprints) for the year(s) of interest, and go through the 2P numbers picking out the Bath Green Park and Templecombe shed codes. By the mid/late fifties, I'd not expect there to be many 2Ps visiting from further afield.

 

Getting rid of the traction tyres may be a double-edged sword, as these locos are rather light, with little room for extra weight, and may struggle without them even on the usual (S&D) prototype load of three coaches if your layout has gradients.

 

The obvious source of tyre-free wheels should be old tender-drive Mainline/Dapol 2Ps (IIRC, the original model, whilst developed by Airfix, wasn't released until after their demise). However, that's assuming Hornby didn't change the size of the axles when they tooled the powered loco chassis.

 

John

Edited August 31, 2019 by Dunsignalling