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Class 69 - Return of the body snatchers?


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36 minutes ago, Grizz said:

My main point was I guess why wait until a previous ly large class has been reduced to a handful and then pick 56s to convert, leaving a max class of only 30 potential class 69s? Why not pick the 60s, with a much larger remaining class of potential candidates

Presumably because the 60s still have work to do, whereas the 56s were finished in their original form and could be bought for next to nothing.

 

Plus I suppose GBRF only want 10 locos, or they'd have ordered more.

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38 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Presumably because the 60s still have work to do, whereas the 56s were finished in their original form and could be bought for next to nothing.

 

Plus I suppose GBRF only want 10 locos, or they'd have ordered more.


Yeah you’re probably right, else someone would have done it.
But I can’t help thinking of how many of the 100 class 60s were dumped, switched off, at Toton for years, open to the elements. EWS / DB had little use for them but then again at the time they owned them all if not most of them and presumably wanted to hang onto them, even though only a hand full ever ran at a time.
Ah whatever it really doesn’t matter anyway. Just great to see innovative organisations such a GBFR doing what they are doing. Sadly I doubt I’ll ever get to see a 69 in sub tropical Sussex somehow....

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5 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Something in the back of my mind says that re-engineering the 60s was considered (probably to include EMD prime movers), but clearly not progressed. Doesn't mean it can't happen in future though.

Yeah it’s funny you should say that, something was nagging in the back of my head about possible issues with class 60s, when I was typing my previous drivel. 
As you though say doesn’t mean it can’t happen. Super 60s were sort of a step in the right direction. 

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59 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Something in the back of my mind says that re-engineering the 60s was considered (probably to include EMD prime movers), but clearly not progressed. Doesn't mean it can't happen in future though.

 

Wasn't there a plan in EWS days to re-engine the 60s with GE engines?  

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8 hours ago, Grizz said:

Sorry I probably should have clarified my Modernisation 2 comments better. 
I do understand that the 69 is in essence a 66, using 66 power unit and control systems etc however bogies, body and other equipment obviously isn’t.

 

It is fantastic that the uk rail freight companies are re-engineering and upgrading older designs, we should have done it before, instead of always going back to the drawing board every time.

 

I should apologise for not including my most important point in my original Modernisation 2 post, which wasn’t an accurate analogy in the first place. I should confess at this point that this was mainly due to me tackling some particularly volatile home made ‘Weapons Grade’ - Ginger, Vanilla and Chilli Vodka......and all that this implies....

 

My main point was I guess why wait until a previous ly large class has been reduced to a handful and then pick 56s to convert, leaving a max class of only 30 potential class 69s? Why not pick the 60s, with a much larger remaining class of potential candidates. Of course I am not a mechanical engineer, there may well be a perfectly good reason why a class of 100 locos have pretty much be allowed to rot out their days, with little or no regard to re-engineering or future use.

 

The key point is that GBRf wanted more Class 66's but couldn't buy more new units as they don't meet current regulations.

 

So GBRf has needed to be creative to avoid buying something entirely new - and "upgrading" an existing platform to almost Class 66 specs is the closest they can get within the rules as they exist.

 

At that point it all comes down to cost - and the Class 56 shell was likely the cheapest suitable donor - and with 91 Class 66's already on their roster they weren't likely to need more than 30 conversions anyway.

Edited by mdvle
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16 hours ago, Grizz said:

 

 

My main point was I guess why wait until a previous ly large class has been reduced to a handful and then pick 56s to convert, leaving a max class of only 30 potential class 69s? Why not pick the 60s, with a much larger remaining class of potential candidates. Of course I am not a mechanical engineer, there may well be a perfectly good reason why a class of 100 locos have pretty much be allowed to rot out their days, with little or no regard to re-engineering or future use.

Because they are owned by DB, not by GBRF.

if DB arent selling them, then no one can do anything with them.

A bit like the 58’s... DB (and EWS) have prior history at letting BR era traction rot away, rather than sell it (31/37/47/56 in the early 2000’s etc).
 

Iirc terms of BR sale, is that if the operator inheriting from BR doesnt want the traction, it has to be offered  to other operators, they cant just dispose of it. The more rundown it is, the higher it costs a competitor to bring it back to life... if its already written off, then it costs nor loses nowt to leave it. Though in the case of the 60’s.

 

I know several 60’s are back to life with new operators, but isnt the maintenance contract with DB to look after them (scratch my back I scratch yours), certainly when I went past Toton two weeks ago I saw DCR, GBRF and DB 60’s on shed.

 

HS2 is going to force DB to do something, as the land they occupy is going to be used. And HS2 is around the corner, and if like HS1, LGV est etc are benchmarks, 50 -70 odd locos are going to be needed to build it... They are going to need to come from somewhere (and unlike France/Spain we cant import them from Europe), so its the best of what we have.. My bet is HST power cars moving stuff around on HS2, top & tail freight 1 power car in use at a time..slow speed stuff), but on NR lines, to bring in material etc I don't see much suitable going spare...

 

I can see a bit of a shortfall, GBRF seem to be stocking up on Eurosheds (66 imports) and class 69’s, DB could potentially do the same with ECR 66’s, after that who knows, but as long as DB constrains 58/60’s it strengthens DBs hand as it starves the competition of supply without big$ investment in new classes, and of course, eats time, maybe DB resurrect some 60’s for whoever does HS2 traffic, and DB gets the maintenance contract for them ?

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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Not sure how to do links to YouTube but if you search for 'YRP North East: A look at GBRf's class 69 modification project with Bob Tiller' this gives a good explanation by GBRf's Engineering Director as to why and how it was done (he mentions that DB wouldn't sell him any class 60s).

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On 07/05/2021 at 08:25, Zomboid said:

Presumably because the 60s still have work to do, whereas the 56s were finished in their original form and could be bought for next to nothing.

 

Plus I suppose GBRF only want 10 locos, or they'd have ordered more.


There are options for further Class 69 conversions. A decision will be taken in mid-July, once the first four are in traffic.

 

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Aren't the drivers for rebuilding instead of new build different now, in particular environmental requirements for locos? I thought I read somewhere that there was no suitable design available for a new diesel locomotive fitting the UK loading gauge that would meet the latest emission regulations, so there would be high design costs to factor in, so new kit in an existing bodyshell is more cost-effective?

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2 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

Aren't the drivers for rebuilding instead of new build different now, in particular environmental requirements for locos? I thought I read somewhere that there was no suitable design available for a new diesel locomotive fitting the UK loading gauge that would meet the latest emission regulations, so there would be high design costs to factor in, so new kit in an existing bodyshell is more cost-effective?

correct, the Jim Fisk article was written when the option existed to buy a new loco with a new engine. That option doesn't exist today for the reasons you have read/correctly quoted. The class 56 rebuild into a class 69 circumvents that as it an existing loco and the Tier IIIB requirement only applies to new builds. The legislation has alas had the unintended side effect of forcing operators down the route of retaining ageing locomotives and upgrading them. 

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Retaining and upgrading old locos is a format that has worked well in the US for many years. Some of the upgraded GP's and SD's running around with updated running gear must be close to 75 years old now.

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15 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

Aren't the drivers for rebuilding instead of new build different now, in particular environmental requirements for locos? I thought I read somewhere that there was no suitable design available for a new diesel locomotive fitting the UK loading gauge that would meet the latest emission regulations, so there would be high design costs to factor in, so new kit in an existing bodyshell is more cost-effective?

 

Yes and no.

 

The existence of the DRS class 68s and the forthcoming ROG tri-mode class 93s shows that although difficult, it is technically possible to design a emissions complaint engine that would fit within a UK gauge loco.

 

However such locos don't come cheap nor are they necessarily as powerful as some operators would like, plus they have been Bo-Bo designs which are less useful on heavy freight turns. Thus FOCs have increasingly looked at refurbishing older traction instead as a cheaper solution, particularly for their heavy haul needs.

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14 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

Aren't the drivers for rebuilding instead of new build different now, in particular environmental requirements for locos? I thought I read somewhere that there was no suitable design available for a new diesel locomotive fitting the UK loading gauge that would meet the latest emission regulations, so there would be high design costs to factor in, so new kit in an existing bodyshell is more cost-effective?


There are designs out there and Stadler have proved it can be done with the Class 68, 88 and 93s. Will there be more to come? Are there more types to come? Definitely ... Roll on 2022 :spiteful:

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22 hours ago, MarshLane said:


There are designs out there and Stadler have proved it can be done with the Class 68, 88 and 93s. Will there be more to come? Are there more types to come? Definitely ... Roll on 2022 :spiteful:

I would love to see a class 20/37/73 replacement - a jack of all trades with low axle loading. So Co-Co or Bo-Bo-Bo. 2500hp-3000hp would be more than enough, which should give them room to fit all the emissions equipment in too.

 

Or perhaps its a lightweight Bo-Bo with 1500hp-2000hp that can run the West Highland Line, permanent way trains etc.

 

Anyway, I think there's a gap in new build, but a small one. It won't be filled by a US product, 30-32tonnes per axle isn't going to work. Which isn't really the point of the bodysnatchers thread... 

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13 minutes ago, Nova Scotian said:

I would love to see a class 20/37/73 replacement - a jack of all trades with low axle loading. So Co-Co or Bo-Bo-Bo. 2500hp-3000hp would be more than enough, which should give them room to fit all the emissions equipment in too.

 

Or perhaps its a lightweight Bo-Bo with 1500hp-2000hp that can run the West Highland Line, permanent way trains etc.

 

Anyway, I think there's a gap in new build, but a small one. It won't be filled by a US product, 30-32tonnes per axle isn't going to work. Which isn't really the point of the bodysnatchers thread... 

 

Which is basically inviting someone to buy up the remaining 73s and 37s then gut them as per the 56s!

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22 hours ago, MarshLane said:


There are designs out there and Stadler have proved it can be done with the Class 68, 88 and 93s. Will there be more to come? Are there more types to come? Definitely ... Roll on 2022 :spiteful:

 

Stadler have only 1 product that is Stage V emissions compliant and that is the Class 93(*), which is only 1,200hp (diesel) vs the 3,300hp of the Class 69 - and it won't arrive for at least another 2 years and it's real world performance is unknown.

 

The Class 68 pre-dates Stage V and thus can no longer (as currently in service) be purchased new, it would require a redesign to meet current regulations.

 

The class 88 also pre-dates Stage V and is at 940hp not a Class 69 replacement.

 

* - https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/rail-operations-uk-ltd-orders-class-93-tri-modes

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17 minutes ago, mdvle said:

Stadler have only 1 product that is Stage V emissions compliant and that is the Class 93(*), which is only 1,200hp (diesel) vs the 3,300hp of the Class 69 - and it won't arrive for at least another 2 years and it's real world performance is unknown.


Do they.........?????

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56 minutes ago, Nova Scotian said:

I would love to see a class 20/37/73 replacement - a jack of all trades with low axle loading. So Co-Co or Bo-Bo-Bo. 2500hp-3000hp would be more than enough, which should give them room to fit all the emissions equipment in too.

 

Or perhaps its a lightweight Bo-Bo with 1500hp-2000hp that can run the West Highland Line, permanent way trains etc.

 

Anyway, I think there's a gap in new build, but a small one. It won't be filled by a US product, 30-32tonnes per axle isn't going to work. Which isn't really the point of the bodysnatchers thread... 

 

I agree in many ways. It needs an all-rounder in many respects, but Bo-Bo traction doesn’t work for heavy freight tho. Even DRS has shown that if you replace an 88 with a 68 over Shap it needs to be double-headed. Two axle bogies are great for lighter trains and passenger, but axle weights are heavy and it needs a Co-Co machine for freight.
 

The Siemens Vectron being modular is, in many ways an ideal candidate, as power modules can be swapped out, but it needs a significant order 40-50 locos (so around £150 million investment minimum) to make it viable for Siemens to adapt the design to the UK loading gauge. That is one of several reasons why rebuilds like the 69s and 73/9s are attractive to operators.
 

I doubt we’ll see another big influx of US diesels. I know EMD has a Class 66 replacement, both engine and bodyshell, but none of the UK freight operators are interested - both from a specification point of view and price point. But climate concerns and the need to attract business to green options means there needs to be a better bi-mode option than a Class 88.

 

edit: Apologies for the thread drift.

Edited by MarshLane
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18 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

 

 

edit: Apologies for the thread drift.

Where I think we can get this thread back on track (my fault, but the pun is good :) ) is that the reason the 69 can be manufactured was the availability of spare engines ordered for the 66s.


My understanding is that you can retrofit engine spares that were delivered under a previous emissions regime. Therefore it's not *just* about the fact they're 56s, it's also about having the engines on hand.


Are there are any other engine supplies lying around unused to re-engine any other class? If not, one can see this being a very limited class run, but if there are oodles of engines lying around maybe we'll see them shoehorned into a few different classes?

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