Operating out front - Where?

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

This is more of a question and discussion for the punters at exhibitions regarding the positioning of operating a layout from the front.

 

For my next layout, see below, I plan to have up to two operators on the audience side of the layout:

 

 

One will be a signaller which will be operating (if you know me well enough) a fully prototypical NX Signalling Panel and the other will be a shunter operating a small lever frame. The signaller will be out the front all the time, whilst the shunter will only be out the front from time to time (the lever frame will be able to be hidden away within the layout).

 

Obviously I would like the public to view as much of not only the layout but also the NX Panel. The problem being the panel will be quite long and the signaller needs to sit in front of it too operate it.

 

So, my question is where would the public / audience would like the operators to sit in such a situation, bearing mind the whole scenic section will have something of interest on it?

 

Simon

Edited April 6, 2019 by St. Simon

[RFS]

Can I gently suggest you correct the typo in the title - was a bit confused at first!

[St. Simon]

3 minutes ago, RFS said:

Can I gently suggest you correct the typo in the title - was a bit confused at first!

 

Sorry, duly edited

 

Simon

[Ian Simpson]

I know it's a bit unfair to the operators, but I'd suggest they should be placed as near the fiddle yards as possible so they don't obstruct the scenic part of the layout. It's where I always try to stand / sit if I'm operating from the front. 

[Siberian Snooper]

As has been mentioned already as near or in front of the fiddleyards as possible. The other consideration is will you be able to get a reliable  operating crew of five operators, I say 5 as a spare is advisable for relief breaks and to fetch the tea etc. We have found in our club that we can only rely on a few members to go to shows and on occasions we have had to co-opt friends to help out.

 

 

[kevinlms]

13 hours ago, Ian Simpson said:

I know it's a bit unfair to the operators, but I'd suggest they should be placed as near the fiddle yards as possible so they don't obstruct the scenic part of the layout. It's where I always try to stand / sit if I'm operating from the front. 

We tried a front controlled layout once and had lots of complaints about operators standing blocking the view , or else when they were putting items back on the track.

So it is important to select a location, where you aren't merely presenting your back to would be observers.

[OhOh]

Quote

 

I'm always keen to see more of the operational and technical aspects beyond the scenic sections at exhibitions, so anything that makes these more easily visible is a good thing in my book.

 

That said, it can often be quite difficult to get a good clear view, so adding any semi-permanent 'blocker' in front isn't such a good thing IMHO.

 

Maybe a webcam and display screen, showing what's going-on behind the scenes, would be a way to go?

[Kris]

Do you need 2 people out front? If I read your plan correctly the scenic area is 15ft. With 2 people out front you will loose good visibility to about 1/3 of this area which will not be a crowd pleaser.

[Dungrange]

I'm not a fan of layouts with the operators out front unless the layout is a relatively small fiddle yard to terminus type layout and the single operator is situated in front of the fiddle yard - ie not blocking the scenic area.  I'm not sure I that understand why the 'Shunter' has to be out front - I think this role could just as easily be performed from the rear and would avoid blocking the audiences view unnecessarily.

 

With regards the 'Signaller', I think you are only placing them out front so that the public can see the NX Panel.   Would it be possible to have the layout at a height such that the operators would be seated behind the layout but that the signaller would have to stand behind the layout with his back to the audience.  The NX Panel would then be separate from the layout, but mounted at a height such that it could be seen quite clearly above the height of the back-scene.  The downside is that the 'Signaller' would not be able to see operations on the layout (which would be behind him) but this would be prototypical.  Most signalling staff do not have any knowledge of what is actually happening on the track beyond what is relayed to them through the track circuits etc.

 

This would then avoid blocking views for those interested in the scenic area, while also allowing those who would like to see the NX Panel being able to do so by looking above the back-scene.  It may not work, because I'm not entirely sure what this NX Panel will look like, but that's my two pence worth.

[Forester]

The audience will of course politely stand well back exactly in the space on the plan marked AUDIENCE so as not to block the operators' view and not invade their personal space or get in front of them or knock them about with their bags.....

 

.. or have I just had a rough day?

 

[The Stationmaster]

I think I'd put the audience and the 'Signaller' (and his panel of course) on the other side so you have operating staff  and 'fiddle'/maintenance space within the L.  If you do that it might be a bteer fit for exhibitions as it looks a rather space consuming shape as you are presenting it

[The Johnster]

If you are going to have a 'front of house' man to field questions I'd suggest making that his sole task and not giving him other jobs, as one will distract from the other.  A question fielder of this sort can stand in front of the fiddle yard where he doesn't block the view of the layout.  For exhibitions I agree with Mike that the 'L' should be the other way around, with the fielder standing in front of the right hand fiddle yard.  

 

Might it be possible to have the panel behind the layout and raised a little on some sort of platform, facing the audience, so that they can see what's going on; the panel operator can slide up and down on an office chair with castors.  This allows the punters to get as close as the barriers allow to the layout and have an unobstructed veiw, and you can still show off the panel.

[pirouets]

Simon, a couple of questions

 

1. Why does the left hand side turn forwards rather than back? obviously it will fit the corner or a hall quite well but you may not always get that space but you have in your head the scene as it turns the corner.

2. This makes it complex but could there be a dummy panel reflecting all operations that could be seen by the viewer whilst the signaler is then behind the fiddle yard looking over as its that corner of the layout that will get squashed where as you say the shunter will only put in an appearance when needed?

[298]

4 hours ago, Kris said:

Do you need 2 people out front? If I read your plan correctly the scenic area is 15ft. With 2 people out front you will loose good visibility to about 1/3 of this area which will not be a crowd pleaser.

 

It won't be a crowd pleaser anyway 'cos the trains don't go round and round...

 

I've operated one layout and seen others where the Signaller/Dispatcher is sat out front on a low table, so isn't in the way height-wise. But as you can guess, some people sat in the firing line could cope admirably with their own tasks and answering questions from the public at the same time, but others less so. My own layouts are operated from the front( /side) with varying degrees of hands-off, most of the time it is good to interact with the public instead of being inside moronically pushing buttons and flicking switches, but it is nice to be able to get out of the way every now and then...

[kingmender]

Hi Simon

On of our club layouts, Chadderton, that I've been part of building and now operating has the ability for two operators at the front. The design of layout is continuous loop with fiddleyard at the rear, scenic on the ends and front. It has a through station towards the left end with the goods yard extending towards the right hand end on the front of the layout. A shed scene with turntable, coaling and water facilities occupies the left hand front corner nearer the station. Layout is approx 24' x 12'.

The Shed and Yard are both accessed from a goods loop. We've included "ground frames" for the yard and shed that are about 125mm x 75mm with the mimic diagram and centre sprung toggle switches to operate the points. These replicate parts of the main panels in the centre operating well. As we are using DCC sockets are also on the front so handsets can be plugged in. One operator or shunter can operate either or both ground frames working with the main operators to take possession of the goods loop and enabling engines and stock to move between the yard and shed.  Goods trains can then be run into the loop by the main operators and handed to the shunters working from the front. 

We've found it works really well and creates a lot of interaction with the viewers. We don't run a timetable so if shunting stops while talking to the public it doesn't really matter.

With all controls duplicated on the main panel we can also run without operators outside.

Rodger

[St. Simon]

On 07/04/2019 at 09:43, Siberian Snooper said:

The other consideration is will you be able to get a reliable  operating crew of five operators, I say 5 as a spare is advisable for relief breaks and to fetch the tea etc. We have found in our club that we can only rely on a few members to go to shows and on occasions we have had to co-opt friends to help out.

 

Hi,

 

Yes, I know that getting operators can be a problem, I'm looking at ways that the panel can be worked automatically via Train Describers so that just 2 drivers are needed at a show if needed.

 

On 07/04/2019 at 12:55, Kris said:

Do you need 2 people out front? If I read your plan correctly the scenic area is 15ft. With 2 people out front you will loose good visibility to about 1/3 of this area which will not be a crowd pleaser.

 

On 07/04/2019 at 13:12, Dungrange said:

 I'm not sure I that understand why the 'Shunter' has to be out front - I think this role could just as easily be performed from the rear and would avoid blocking the audiences view unnecessarily.

 

To answer both your questions, the 'Shunter' would be a part time roll, he would be shunting aggregate trains between a reception / departure line and a discharge line via a headshunt that would arrive only occasionally and probably only when someone who is on a break would like to shunt (I don't envisage having a dedicated operator as shunter and the 'shunter' would be a question answer person as well). I also prefer shunting out front than behind a backscene personally (but I can see the arguments against it). 

 

To give you an idea of the layout will look like, here is the layout diagram:

 

 

On 07/04/2019 at 16:06, pirouets said:

Simon, a couple of questions

 

1. Why does the left hand side turn forwards rather than back? obviously it will fit the corner or a hall quite well but you may not always get that space but you have in your head the scene as it turns the corner.

2. This makes it complex but could there be a dummy panel reflecting all operations that could be seen by the viewer whilst the signaler is then behind the fiddle yard looking over as its that corner of the layout that will get squashed where as you say the shunter will only put in an appearance when needed?

 

Very good questions!

 

1. I had originally designed the layout sweeping backwards rather than forwards, but there's two reason for the change. (a) This layout will also be a home layout and, assuming I get a house or shed large enough to cope with a layout one day, it will be easier to fit in a room to operate from the front if the layout sweeps forwards not backwards (I don't really want to have two separate end boards for exhibitions and home). (b) The area it is based on, Fareham, has this sort of arrangement at that end (sweeping in from the 'front' rather than the back'. I realise that this isn't the best for exhibition use, but I have seen it done.

 

2. I have thought about it and it is very complex, but I have thought it over and come up with this:

 

 

With the indication panel looking like this:

 

NX Control Panel - Diagram.pdf

 

I think this solves most of the problems, but does create a problem in that the Control Console will not have any route / track indications on it, purely the route setting buttons. The problem being is that the signaller won't know when to set / cancel routes (no, I'm not having TORR on this, I can't be bothered doing the comprehensive approach locking on that it needs!). I think this could be resolved by having the signaller sat high so he looks over the backscene onto the layout as the layout will be low down, so that it can be operated whilst sitting. 

 

Simon

[Metr0Land]

Am I missing something here?  If the layout isn't yet built then why not simply have sockets on both sides of the layout so you can plug in the controllers any which-way.

 

Thus you can trial it under exhibition conditons with 2 people at front or 2 behind or 1+1 or the other 1+1 and see what actually works without too much embarassment?

[PaulRhB]

Why not put the panel in front of the right hand fiddleyard so it doesn’t obscure the punters view and gives the Signalman a typical view too?

You can have him sitting or standing there, it becomes an extra feature rather than competing with the layout and hides the fiddleyard ‘dead space’. Someone engaging in conversation about the panel would put two people in the way of those just wanting to watch the trains. 

[Mallard60022]

Hate to say it like this but:

the person(s) out front need to be thick skinned, be able to remain enthused for hours on end and very tolerant and willing to out talk some or be available to listen for hours to others!

More politely I would say that the person out front needs to have maybe only a minor role in operations and a lot of time to field questions. It is useful to have something to do as they can use that as the 'close' to a conversation that might just need killing off!

How do I know this and dare to say such a thing?

Phil