Mk4 WAG

[JZjr]

The 'Premier' Welsh Assembly Government service from South to North Wales is due to be upgraded to MK4's this year.  Living and working on the Western region I am a little clueless when it comes to anything Eastern!

 

What sort of formation are we looking at for the new service.  I have read that it will remain 67 hauled and will also use a Mk4 DVT but I don't know what other types of MK4 exist and how they are/were run on the ECML so I cannot even speculate what the new train could look like.  I presume that a full restaurant service will still be available in the future.

 

Ultimately I am looking to do a respray as Mk4's are available cheaply on eBay & it would be more interesting that another DMU in my collection!

 

Cheers

[nightstar.train]

They are supposed to be 4 Mk4s + DVT. Presumably that will copy the current rakes and have one first class restaurant coach and 3 standards. I’m not sure if they’ll get a special livery like the current WAG express. It’d be good if they did, the new TfW is really bland and uninspired. Perhaps something with a big dragon on the DVT?

 

Technically there are 5 types of Mk4, DVT, First Open (FO), Restaurant First Modular (RFM), Tourist Open (TO), and Tourist Open End (TOE). The TOE and DVT are the only ones with couplings on one end. All the rest are semi permanent coupled with bars between them. If you really want to model it Hurst did a resin end to convert a Hornby FO or TO (same bodyshell) into a TOE. 

[JZjr]

Thanks.

 

It will be quite interesting to see the ECML stock cascaded over to the west.  There has also been an open access application to run an IC225 set between Cardiff and Paddington made fairly recently. 

 

Cheers

Edited April 8, 2019 by JZjr

[TravisM]

From my sources I’ve got still on the railway, when LNER finish with the Class 91’s and Mk IV’s, those Mk IV’s going on the Welsh Assembly Government funded service from Holyhead to Cardiff will be DVT, RFM, TSOD, TSO, TSO or TSOE, Class 67.

 

The open access operator doing the Blackpool - Euston service will have five Mk IV trainsets for four diagrams and six Class 91’s and there’s also talk of several sets heading to Virgin West Coast to do slow Manchester/Liverpool - Euston to release equal number of Pendolino sets for services to Scotland.  I’ve not heard anything about them heading to the GWML to work services there.

[JZjr]

The GWML application is just that at the moment with no stock sourced,  just a suggestion of stock.  The application is available to read on the ORR website.  Whether there are sufficient paths on the GWML is another matter.  It looks like open access is picking up a bit with First looking to run services between London and Scotland at discount prices.

 

Regarding the Mk4's is there any external difference between the TSO and the TSOD rather than just the labeling?

 

Cheers

[TravisM]

3 hours ago, JZjr said:

 

Regarding the Mk4's is there any external difference between the TSO and the TSOD rather than just the labeling?

 

Cheers

 

No, all internal 

[JZjr]

Thanks,

 

Now, when do we think they'll be out?  TfW have, I believe, said by this year but will LNER be done with them in time.  The 800's have been delayed already in the west and the east. 

 

Cheers

[Legend]

Makes Cavalexs decision to model Mk4 and 91s all the more pertinent . There should be lots of possible variations for this model in the future as well as all the existing versions.  I'm glad the 91s and mk4s will find use elsewhere . I really had no idea they were still going to be in widespread use . great!

 

The Welsh livery may be bland but I find it quite effective and when it comes to repaints the simpler the better!

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, JZjr said:

Thanks,

 

Now, when do we think they'll be out?  TfW have, I believe, said by this year but will LNER be done with them in time.  The 800's have been delayed already in the west and the east. 

 

Cheers

If it's anything like what has happened to GWR somebody on the ECML night well be held on the horns of a contract and have to let the stock go.  All depends on who wants to stand on their dignity and get what they have contracted for when they are contracted to get it.

[hexagon789]

21 hours ago, JZjr said:

The 'Premier' Welsh Assembly Government service from South to North Wales is due to be upgraded to MK4's this year.  Living and working on the Western region I am a little clueless when it comes to anything Eastern!

 

What sort of formation are we looking at for the new service.  I have read that it will remain 67 hauled and will also use a Mk4 DVT but I don't know what other types of MK4 exist and how they are/were run on the ECML so I cannot even speculate what the new train could look like.  I presume that a full restaurant service will still be available in the future.

 

Ultimately I am looking to do a respray as Mk4's are available cheaply on eBay & it would be more interesting that another DMU in my collection!

 

Cheers

 

Originally the types were:

 

DVT - Driving Van Trailer

PO - Pullman Open

SV - Service Vehicle

TOD - Tourist Open Disabled

TO - Tourist Open

TOE - Tourist Open End

 

The GNER "Mallard refurbishment" did two main things to the basic types of Mk4s, the SV was rotated 180 degrees so the seating now adjoined standard class, and was changed from 20 First in a 2+1 arrangement to 30 standard in a 2+2. Additionally each set had one PO refitted with a disabled toilet and had some seats removed to provide a space for a wheelchair becoming a POD (Pullman Open Disabled).

 

As mentioned the TfW sets will be loco+4 Mk4+Mk4 DVT; so Class 67+TOE+TO+TOD+SV+DVT seems likely.

[JZjr]

7 hours ago, Legend said:

Makes Cavalexs decision to model Mk4 and 91s all the more pertinent . There should be lots of possible variations for this model in the future as well as all the existing versions.  I'm glad the 91s and mk4s will find use elsewhere . I really had no idea they were still going to be in widespread use . great!

 

The Welsh livery may be bland but I find it quite effective and when it comes to repaints the simpler the better!

 

I wasn't aware there was going to be another model!

 

I have bought a Mk4 DVT and three TSO's, I'm thinking about respraying these in to TfW livery and running it as a 'conecpt' livery.  If a GWML set does ever appear I might have to buy a set and electrify any future layouts so I can run it!

 

30 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

 

Originally the types were:

 

DVT - Driving Van Trailer

PO - Pullman Open

SV - Service Vehicle

TOD - Tourist Open Disabled

TO - Tourist Open

TOE - Tourist Open End

 

It's interesting to hear about them, I haven't really seen them or ever traveled on them in the past so it's all new to me.

 

Cheers

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by JZjr

[black and decker boy]

The first Azuma class 800/801s are due into service with LNER this month I believe and the immunisation north of York is well advanced so the Cascade to TfW seems feasible by the end of this year

[DIRTY DIESEL]

There’s talk (fromTfW Llandudno Junction dept) that two HSTs power cars (one as a spare) are being looked at for short term use with a DVT, Holyhead & Chester crews to be trained on them. No idea if this is with MK3s or MK4s. 

[nightstar.train]

8 minutes ago, DIRTY DIESEL said:

There’s talk (fromTfW Llandudno Junction dept) that two HSTs power cars (one as a spare) are being looked at for short term use with a DVT, Holyhead & Chester crews to be trained on them. No idea if this is with MK3s or MK4s. 

 

Why? Is there a problem with the 67s? Or is this for extra services? It seems an awfully complicated proposition as, AFAIK, HSTs use their own multi working systems that isn’t what’s on the DVTs, or TDM which used to be on the DVTs. 

[DIRTY DIESEL]

1 hour ago, nightstar.train said:

 

Why? Is there a problem with the 67s? Or is this for extra services? It seems an awfully complicated proposition as, AFAIK, HSTs use their own multi working systems that isn’t what’s on the DVTs, or TDM which used to be on the DVTs. 

Unfortunately I’ve no idea, it’s what us signallers were told from Tfw staff, it’s just for the WAG & not the Manchester/Holyhead diagram.

[TravisM]

6 hours ago, DIRTY DIESEL said:

There’s talk (fromTfW Llandudno Junction dept) that two HSTs power cars (one as a spare) are being looked at for short term use with a DVT, Holyhead & Chester crews to be trained on them. No idea if this is with MK3s or MK4s. 

 

I struggle to see that happening as Class 43’s and HST trailers have a non standard 3 phase electrical system and can’t be run with anything else.  Also HST trailers having to be rebuilt to become disabled compliant by the end of the year or phased out.

 

With the Mk IV’s already compliant and available, it’s a no brainer to use those with either a Class 57 or 67.

[br2975]

Spoke with two DB(S) Newport based drivers at the weekend who both referred to DB having been approached by TfW seeking extra 67s, including "how many can you spare ?"

 .

Not much meat on these bones sadly.

[muddy water]

Hi!

Have you started painting your mk4s into WAG white body with red doors yet?

Pictures would be nice!

[Titan]

On 08/04/2019 at 21:47, nightstar.train said:

 

 The TOE and DVT are the only ones with couplings on one end. All the rest are semi permanent coupled with bars between them. 

 

Are you sure? they were originally fitted with tightlocks within set, were they changed for some reason?

[45125]

Still have tightlocks.

[frobisher]

On 09/04/2019 at 21:35, nightstar.train said:

 

Why? Is there a problem with the 67s? Or is this for extra services? It seems an awfully complicated proposition as, AFAIK, HSTs use their own multi working systems that isn’t what’s on the DVTs, or TDM which used to be on the DVTs. 

 

However, given that HST power cars have previously been modified to work with TDM (those that worked with the 91's and 89 before all the MK4 sets were rolled out) it's a problem with a known solution.

 

 

[Titan]

9 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

However, given that HST power cars have previously been modified to work with TDM (those that worked with the 91's and 89 before all the MK4 sets were rolled out) it's a problem with a known solution.

 

 

 

However, it is only one out of at least two major issues.  The other one does not have a known solution.

[45125]

1 hour ago, frobisher said:

 

However, given that HST power cars have previously been modified to work with TDM (those that worked with the 91's and 89 before all the MK4 sets were rolled out) it's a problem with a known solution.

 

 

Require FDM fitting as well.

 

[frobisher]

23 hours ago, Titan said:

 

However, it is only one out of at least two major issues.  The other one does not have a known solution.

 

If you're no longer going to be working HST sets with them, then not exactly rocket science to sort that one out...

[Titan]

11 hours ago, frobisher said:

 

If you're no longer going to be working HST sets with them, then not exactly rocket science to sort that one out...

 

It is still going to cost to do all these mods on something which is pretty ancient by any standard.  Why bother when you could just use a 67 as is?