Mk4 WAG

[uax6]

And of course by modding the 43's you then make them bespoke, and then there is maintenance cover required. And after all that they would then have to be modded back to standard after the end of the use period.. Very expensive by any stretch.

 

Andy G

[ess1uk]

Plenty of 67s around 

[edin_bry2x]

On 09/04/2019 at 21:14, DIRTY DIESEL said:

There’s talk (fromTfW Llandudno Junction dept) that two HSTs power cars (one as a spare) are being looked at for short term use with a DVT, Holyhead & Chester crews to be trained on them. No idea if this is with MK3s or MK4s. 

 

Haha, did they tell you this on the 1st of April by any chance, never herd so much tosh.

 

[Ken.W]

On 08/04/2019 at 21:47, nightstar.train said:

They are supposed to be 4 Mk4s + DVT. Presumably that will copy the current rakes and have one first class restaurant coach and 3 standards.

 

Technically there are 5 types of Mk4, DVT, First Open (FO), Restaurant First Modular (RFM), Tourist Open (TO), and Tourist Open End (TOE). The TOE and DVT are the only ones with couplings on one end. All the rest are semi permanent coupled with bars between them. If you really want to model it Hurst did a resin end to convert a Hornby FO or TO (same bodyshell) into a TOE. 

 

There are, as currently formed, no Mk4 Restaurant Firsts. The SV (Service Vehicle) was converted from First to Standard class seating by the GNER "Mallard" refurb. First Class in the EC sets is now formed of three full Firsts, one with disabled facilities.

 

On 08/04/2019 at 22:31, jools1959 said:

those Mk IV’s going on ... Holyhead to Cardiff will be DVT, RFM, TSOD, TSO, TSO or TSOE, Class 67.

 

A DVT's required at one end, and a TOE on the other end. They're the only Mk4s that can, at their outer ends, be coupled to other stock or locos.

 

On 09/04/2019 at 18:32, hexagon789 said:

As mentioned the TfW sets will be loco+4 Mk4+Mk4 DVT; so Class 67+TOE+TO+TOD+SV+DVT seems likely.

 

This, with the current stock set-up, doesn't provide First Class (from previous posts I take it the current stock does)

Also, would a vehicle, half of which is full kitchen facilities and buffet, be excessive in a 4-car set?

 

Some of the issues with short forming Mk4 sets;

A DVT's required at one end, besides the obvious of providing push-pull operation, and the cab end with buffers and draw-hook (no coupling, an emergency screw coupling's used), being able to couple to locos / other stock, it also houses the equipment controlling the train door interlock including brake application.

 

A TOE's always required at the other end, being the only other vehicle that can couple to a loco / other stock, the outer end having retractable side buffers, a drop-head buckeye coupler, and no gangway.

 

All intermediate connections on a Mk4 set are with fixed-head tightlock buckeyes, with no side buffers, and also the Mk4 gangways are incompatable with any other stock as the faceplates have locating spigots and sockets, and side clamps.

 

The SV, half's taken up by the kitchen and buffet, and now has Standard instead of First seating. It's currently required in any set as it houses the auto-announcement equipment. As above, all First class is currently in full First vehicles.

 

At this stage, converting HST power cars seems nonsensical due to the problems entailed, and would probably delay introduction while the work was done.

Although some 43s were fitted with TDM to work with 91s, this equipment is long since defunct, and since removed.

The Electric Train Supply, 415v 3-phase AC, is unique to the HST stock.

The power cars don't have any train door interlock indication, or traction interlock.

A lot of work and expense, particularly when there's suitable locos already available.

Also bear in mind, whilst doing such work as fitting TDM may have been relatively straightforward under BR, on the modern railway such major changes to the control and electrical systems would probably void their type approval, requiring them to be re-certified - probably a longer and more expensive job than doing the work.

 

[TravisM]

From my observations of MkIV’s stock being taken from Worksop to Eastleigh for refresh/overhaul, it consists of DVT, FO, RBS and two TSO’s (probably a TSO(D) and TSOE.  I would have thought a single FO is possibly excessive for 1st Class on this service.

[Ken.W]

2 hours ago, jools1959 said:

 I would have thought a single FO is possibly excessive for 1st Class on this service.

 

That's what I'd have thought, though, as above, the full PO's are the only First class accommodation in Mk4s.

Unless of course, they're planning to alter them to composites, or revert the SV back to First class?

 

One of the TOs will have to be a TOE, or else the loco couldn't couple to it. Easy to spot - no gangway on the outer end.

Either the PO or the other TO could be the disabled coach (or even both). If the PO at least there wouldn't be quite so much First class (but not much difference)

 

BTW, Mk4 coach designations are PO - Pullman Open (First class); SV - Service Vehicle (Restaurant-Buffet); and TO - Tourist Open (Standard class). Add D for the Disabled and E for the End coaches.

[TravisM]

2 hours ago, Ken.W said:

Unless of course, they're planning to alter them to composites, or revert the SV back to First class?

 

I would have thought reverting the SV back to 1st Class would be the natural thing to do unless unless there doing just a refresh rather than a refurb which would mean just a very heavy clean, removing anything in the interior regarding VTEC or LNER and new vinyls on the side.

 

Your right about the end vehicle being a TSOE but it was too far away to verify it, also I’m sure that both the FO and other TSO would have had disabled toilets in case one was unavailable when the train was in service.

[Ken.W]

Agree reverting the SV to 1st would seem the obvious way to go, and as you said a full 1st seems excessive in a 4-car set.

The other alternative would seem to be making the PO a composite, but I suppose we'll just have to wait and see how they come out.

 

Talking of a TOE being required on one end reminds me, in BR days when the Mk4s were introduced we had barrier vehicles which were a Mk2 coach with the gangways removed to enable them to be coupled to Mk4s for stock movements.

 

btw, my 'location' includes Mk4s, from their first being introduced into full through ECML service.

[matt-b]

What is the length of a Mk4 compared to a Mk3 or class 175?

 

Although it's not booked to stop (though I have seen it on rare occasions in the past) at Ludlow there is a issue with the station being on a curve making the train to platform gap rather large.

 

Not sure how health and safety can get around this easily either.

[Ken.W]

Mk3 and Mk4 are both 23 m

[hexagon789]

On 05/11/2019 at 03:32, Ken.W said:

 This, with the current stock set-up, doesn't provide First Class (from previous posts I take it the current stock does)

Also, would a vehicle, half of which is full kitchen facilities and buffet, be excessive in a 4-car set?

 

It would were the SV re-seated to first class and would be the same as the Mk3s, with one vehicle being half kitchen & buffet.

 

13 hours ago, Ken.W said:

That's what I'd have thought, though, as above, the full PO's are the only First class accommodation in Mk4s.

Unless of course, they're planning to alter them to composites, or revert the SV back to First class?

 

I've no idea exactly what the plan is, but TfW tweeted a while back that each Mk4 set would have 19 first class seats.

[phil-b259]

Replace the std class seats in the SV with those from the FO(D)

 

Fit the displaced std class seats from the SV, plus some nicked from an ordinary TO to create a second TO(D) from the FO(D) thus providing two accessible toilets per rake.

 

(Yes I guess you could pinch a second TO(D) from another set rather than convert the FO(D) - but what with other open access operators expressing an interest in the Mk4s, the leasing company might not tolerate that sort of messing up 2 sets to create one good one).

 

 

[uax6]

I wonder if the seats from the vehicles that are in Booths have been recovered now? A friend was shown inside them and they were completely complete....

 

Andy G

[Ken.W]

12 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

 

It would were the SV re-seated to first class and would be the same as the Mk3s, with one vehicle being half kitchen & buffet.

 

 

I've no idea exactly what the plan is, but TfW tweeted a while back that each Mk4 set would have 19 first class seats.

 

Yes, which is as I've I'd said above, my earlier comment was that the formation which had been suggested gave no 1st class with the current Mk4 stock formation. The alternative would be converting the PO to a composite, as doubt they'd want a Full 1st in a 4-car set.

 

Your second comment probably gives us the answer though, as 19 1st class seats would be just right for a SV converted back to 1st Class.

 

23 hours ago, jools1959 said:

 

also I’m sure that both the FO and other TSO would have had disabled toilets in case one was unavailable when the train was in service.

 

I doubt there'll be two vehicles with disable toilets it the sets as, AFAIK, other 4 or 5 car sets in service just have a single one.

 

As to presence of the PO or POD in the set, how many sets are being done? If the SV is being converted back to 1st as above with 19 seats then a single PO/POD should provide sufficient seats to convert two SVs and it could then come back out as a TO/TOD with the Standard seats out of the SVs.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Ken.W

[adb968008]

Tfw seem to have wasted the oppourtunity to upgrade Cardiff to Manchesters from a 2 car set, this has to be one of the most rammed full long distance services out there... 3 hours on a DMU where its impossible to move from the door way is quite unpleasant, even in BR days they used a class 33 and 5/6 coaches... this could have been a good one for those spare HSTs in Anglia, or more mk4’s and 67’s.

[Joseph_Pestell]

6 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Tfw seem to have wasted the oppourtunity to upgrade Cardiff to Manchesters from a 2 car set, this has to be one of the most rammed full long distance services out there... 3 hours on a DMU where its impossible to move from the door way is quite unpleasant, even in BR days they used a class 33 and 5/6 coaches... this could have been a good one for those spare HSTs in Anglia, or more mk4’s and 67’s.

 

Politics/Nationalism are getting in the way of the optimal solution for the passengers. Objectively, Cardiff-Manchester, with all its connecting possibilities at Crewe is probably a more important  flow than Cardiff to North Wales.

[Zomboid]

One presently non existent service which would seem to be highly useful would be Holyhead to Liverpool, being the nearest large city to North Wales.

[TravisM]

Nice picture on wnxx.com of a Mk4 DVT In TfW livery poking it’s nose out the paint shop at Eastleigh.

[Merfyn Jones]

15 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Tfw seem to have wasted the oppourtunity to upgrade Cardiff to Manchesters from a 2 car set, this has to be one of the most rammed full long distance services out there... 3 hours on a DMU where its impossible to move from the door way is quite unpleasant, even in BR days they used a class 33 and 5/6 coaches... this could have been a good one for those spare HSTs in Anglia, or more mk4’s and 67’s.

An announcement has been made for further Mk.4 sets ordered for that very service.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Merfyn Jones said:

An announcement has been made for further Mk.4 sets ordered for that very service.

Really ? Wow that’s good news, where can I read it ?

Will they be taking more 67’s then ?

 

i’d heard the current two diagrams Holyhead runs (Cardiff and Manchester) were being upgraded from mk3 to mk4’s But not expanding it... which would be a natural solution.

 

i found this statement from TFW dated November 4th, but only refers to replacing mk3’s..

https://tfwrail.wales/one-year

 

but it does say they plan to extend pacers,37’s and have some extra 153’s in early 2020 until some 170’s arrive..but a handful of 170’s isn’t going to replace all the 142/143/37’s etc...

 

in actual numbers it says they need 123 units, without pacers they have 90. A’s a pacer is 2 cars, that’s 33x2 car or 66 vehicles.

 

They stated they are bringing in  12 3x car class 170’s, 36 vehicles.. so there’s a gap there... suggested to be filled by 9x class 153’s...

now my maths suggests there’s still a shortfall of 13 units.. or 21 vehicles...+ 2x Class 37 rakes....

 

i am missing something ...

Edited November 9, 2019 by adb968008

[uax6]

At this rate there might be a need to create some more TS(E)'s!

 

Andy g

[Merfyn Jones]

10 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Really ? Wow that’s good news, where can I read it ?

Will they be taking more 67’s then ?

 

i’d heard the current two diagrams Holyhead runs (Cardiff and Manchester) were being upgraded from mk3 to mk4’s But not expanding it... which would be a natural solution.

 

Transport for Wales have produced numerous press releases about the improvements.  The Holyhead - Cardiff goes to 2 sets and 3 return journeys a day (I think)

One said I believe 9 sets all together. So would that be 5 for the Manchester - Cardiff with one spare ?

[Joseph_Pestell]

11 hours ago, Zomboid said:

One presently non existent service which would seem to be highly useful would be Holyhead to Liverpool, being the nearest large city to North Wales.

Via which route?

[Zomboid]

It could go via Chester & Runcorn now the Halton curve is properly available in both directions

[nightstar.train]

16 hours ago, uax6 said:

At this rate there might be a need to create some more TS(E)'s!

 

Andy g

Not much point to that, as you’d run out of DVTs. There are 33 (i think, maybe 32?) Mk4 sets, so plenty spare still. Although a few are going for the Euston - Blackpool open access service, and some might go for the Paddington to Cardiff open access if that ever gets permission.