NCE

[hayfield]

I have decided to take the plunge into the world of DCC, my local shop sells Gaugemaster, but at Ally Pally whilst telling some friends and other exhibitors of my intending move all seemed to have an opinion that buying a NCE system in my case would be better, now I know this is a very personal and subjective choice and I guess if I ask another group the answer would be the opposite. Anyway looking at quite a few sites many seem to be out of stock of the NCE starter system I am after, The question is there a new version due out ?

[Gilbert]

In stock at Digitrains - my go-to retailer - other than that no connection.

He'll also know if there is a new version due but upgrades can be done- I've had one of mine upgraded with new software during it's lifetime

https://www.digitrains.co.uk/shop-by-brand/nce/pcabuk.html

Chris

[Kingzance]

As you say John, the choice is very personal. I read up a lot before choosing the PowerCab system from NCE which was bought from Digitrains (not link to that company) and has proved very suitable for an old idiot like me. I also have some NCE Switch-8 turnout units for my Tortoise motors and these operate well and are easily accessed through the PowerCab controller which can also be configured to run routing matrices I believe. When I bought my Tortoise motors, I did that from Tony's Trains, a US web seller, and even with shipping and import duties, it cost less than over here. All that of course doesn't answer your question but it does validate your choice (if any validation was needed). Good luck.

 

Tony

[WIMorrison]

Can I strongly suggest that you try whichever handset you decide to go with BEFORE you purchase? there are many different styles, types and capabilities on the marketplace and this is because everyone likes a different look and feel - something only you can decide upon.

 

These and other forums are also littered with stories of people who bought Brand X to find that it didn't do exactly what they wanted, or they didn't like the feel in the hand, or it was missing something and they changed to Brand Y - some of the stories even have them changing to Brand Z after a period (sometimes very short). This is also borne out by looking at auction sites where you will see many second hand systems being sold due to 'upgrading' - and generally to a different system which suggests that they made the wrong choice initially.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

Can I strongly suggest that you try whichever handset you decide to go with BEFORE you purchase? there are many different styles, types and capabilities on the marketplace and this is because everyone likes a different look and feel - something only you can decide upon.

 

These and other forums are also littered with stories of people who bought Brand X to find that it didn't do exactly what they wanted, or they didn't like the feel in the hand, or it was missing something and they changed to Brand Y - some of the stories even have them changing to Brand Z after a period (sometimes very short). This is also borne out by looking at auction sites where you will see many second hand systems being sold due to 'upgrading' - and generally to a different system which suggests that they made the wrong choice initially.

 

 

Thanks for what seems very good advice, I initially chose Gaugemaster as the club 0 gauge layout uses it and the local model railway shop sells it, However as I said at Ally Pally several people (traders and demonstrators all said they either started with or migrated to NCE, none did anything else. The hand sets with both are much the same and other layouts at my club use a verity of hand sets. I had a quick chat with a person on the Digitrains stand, problem is they are in Lincoln (miles away)

[WIMorrison]

where are you? - without knowing that it is difficult to recommend any good outlets in your area

[hayfield]

Chelmsford area

[21C123]

having used a digitrax system then an NCE I went with the NCE. 

 

The main reason was the number and layout of buttons between the two and also being able to operate  the NCE controller with one hand.

 

The radio system works well as well for me.

 

Roger

[WIMorrison]

Unfortunately John not an area that I know but I am sure there are other here who do and can suggest where to go

 

Other than the club equipment have you looked at what people in the club use at home? and important part of the choice is knowing that you have someone locally that can help when you cant work out how to make it do something.

[Kingzance]

12 minutes ago, hayfield said:

Chelmsford area

Coastal DCC is in Ipswich John and they do supply NCE but presently show the PowerCab as being out of stock. I don't know if they have such an extensive range of test equipment as Digitrains in Lincoln.

 

Tony

[Ravenser]

2 hours ago, Kingzance said:

As you say John, the choice is very personal. I read up a lot before choosing the PowerCab system from NCE which was bought from Digitrains (not link to that company) and has proved very suitable for an old idiot like me. I also have some NCE Switch-8 turnout units for my Tortoise motors and these operate well and are easily accessed through the PowerCab controller which can also be configured to run routing matrices I believe. When I bought my Tortoise motors, I did that from Tony's Trains, a US web seller, and even with shipping and import duties, it cost less than over here. All that of course doesn't answer your question but it does validate your choice (if any validation was needed). Good luck.

 

Tony

 

 

There is no real need to be tied to one brand when decoders are concerned.

 

My Tortoises run through Digitrax DS64 decoders , drawing power from a 12V regulated supply (The general opinion seems to be that if you feed them 16V AC they'll fry - despite what it says in the Digitrax documentation). I have used NCE Switch-Its with them , which is fine - except that those draw their power - as well as their data signal - from the track. Given that the PowerCab only takes 1.7A , and the transformer supplied only delivers 1.1A , I am nervous about accessory decoders adding load to the system. (The regulated 12V dc supplies are there anyway for driving LEDS on signals )

 

I use the route macros , which are available directly within the PowerCab and PowerPro. The PowerCab offers 16 macros - the PowerPro a lot more. Since there are only 14 possible route combinations on the layout this is fine for me , but might be a limitation on a larger layout. A large number of accessory decoders can be stored within a macro. This is a proprietary NCE feature - Digitrax handle route macros rather differently , through the accessory  decoders and Loconet (their proprietary cab bus) . Digitrax seem to have the fullest and most extensive functionality for accessory control, so if signally and routes are a major requirement that might push you in that direction (Wines Vine Yard uses Digitrax for that reason I believe)

 

C+L used to sell tortoises I believe

 

[RedgateModels]

4 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

Given that the PowerCab only takes 1.7A

 

Powercab will take 3A, just don't tell it I have a 3.5A supply feeding it LOL

[hayfield]

Thanks for the info but I have no plans to run any accessories yet, its what system is best

 

By the way its for both an 0 gauge and EM gauge layouts, no large Helgan locos, my kit bult locos have Mashimas, I have a Dapol and an Ixion RTR locos in 0 gauge. Small BLT in 7 mm locos with sound and perhaps smoke?

[Kingzance]

21 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

My Tortoises run through Digitrax DS64 decoders , drawing power from a 12V regulated supply (The general opinion seems to be that if you feed them 16V AC they'll fry - despite what it says in the Digitrax documentation). I have used NCE Switch-Its with them , which is fine - except that those draw their power - as well as their data signal - from the track. Given that the PowerCab only takes 1.7A , and the transformer supplied only delivers 1.1A , I am nervous about accessory decoders adding load to the system. (The regulated 12V dc supplies are there anyway for driving LEDS on signals )

 

I use the route macros , which are available directly within the PowerCab and PowerPro. The PowerCab offers 16 macros - the PowerPro a lot more. Since there are only 14 possible route combinations on the layout this is fine for me , but might be a limitation on a larger layout. A large number of accessory decoders can be stored within a macro. This is a proprietary NCE feature - Digitrax handle route macros rather differently , through the accessory  decoders and Loconet (their proprietary cab bus) . Digitrax seem to have the fullest and most extensive functionality for accessory control, so if signally and routes are a major requirement that might push you in that direction (Wines Vine Yard uses Digitrax for that reason I believe)

 

C+L used to sell tortoises I believe

 

It is true that NCE's Switch-8s and their similar products for 1 and two turnouts take their feed from the DCC bus but Tortoises (and Cobalts I guess) actually only take a couple of milliamps each when stalled and only 40mA when driving. When operating my system, there are never more than 8 turnouts to route any movement so 8x40=320mA + 19x2=38mA so total demand is 358mA or just under 0.4A. When power is first switched on, I may have (highly unlikely) all turnouts set the wrong way so that would be a maximum of 1.12A to reset their positions simultaneously but no loco operations would be taking place as the operator has to first select a loco and then give it an instruction on first powering up so most if not all turnouts would by then be in the stalled position and taking the 2mA load.

I discussed running a separate power feed for Tortoises with Digitrains but their advice was not to do that as they already run 40 Tortoises on a PowerCab in their exhibition plan with not issues and you would then need two bus controllers, one for locos and the other for track switching and signalling. If adding remote operated signals, these could be by other miniature servos or by solenoid coils and suitable accessory boards are also available from NCE although I have no experience of them.
Mine is a relatively small layout set in 1930 with the likelihood of a maximum of "two engines in steam" at any one time and I don't have lighting in my carriages. It will not be on the exhibition circuit but remains in my garage / man-cave/railway room . Illumination of buildings will be done through a separate and variable voltage feed. This was all part of my investigation process into which control system I would settle upon and so far my experiences are that I personally do not regret the choice I made but it would be wrong for me to insist that it would be the right choice for others.

 

Tony

[Ravenser]

23 minutes ago, Kingzance said:

It is true that NCE's Switch-8s and their similar products for 1 and two turnouts take their feed from the DCC bus but Tortoises (and Cobalts I guess) actually only take a couple of milliamps each when stalled and only 40mA when driving. When operating my system, there are never more than 8 turnouts to route any movement so 8x40=320mA + 19x2=38mA so total demand is 358mA or just under 0.4A. When power is first switched on, I may have (highly unlikely) all turnouts set the wrong way so that would be a maximum of 1.12A to reset their positions simultaneously but no loco operations would be taking place as the operator has to first select a loco and then give it an instruction on first powering up so most if not all turnouts would by then be in the stalled position and taking the 2mA load.

I discussed running a separate power feed for Tortoises with Digitrains but their advice was not to do that as they already run 40 Tortoises on a PowerCab in their exhibition plan with not issues and you would then need two bus controllers, one for locos and the other for track switching and signalling. If adding remote operated signals, these could be by other miniature servos or by solenoid coils and suitable accessory boards are also available from NCE although I have no experience of them.
Mine is a relatively small layout set in 1930 with the likelihood of a maximum of "two engines in steam" at any one time and I don't have lighting in my carriages. It will not be on the exhibition circuit but remains in my garage / man-cave/railway room . Illumination of buildings will be done through a separate and variable voltage feed. This was all part of my investigation process into which control system I would settle upon and so far my experiences are that I personally do not regret the choice I made but it would be wrong for me to insist that it would be the right choice for others.

 

Tony

 

 

My layout has a 16V AC auxiliary bus , powered by a Roco 45VA transformer left over from a cheap Lokmaus system acquired from someone else . This originally powered a MERG decoder directly, and also a Hoffmann point motor (switched through the Tortoise switch contacts on the other half of a crossover). It also powers two 12V dc regulated supply units , one on each board, for LEDs - when the MERG decoder was replaced with a Digitrax DS64 , this was also hooked up to the regulated 12V dc output.

 

The data signal comes from the DCC traction bus in all cases - but the "grunt" is from a separate power supply

 

I've also been involved with a medium sized club project where point motors were driven by Lenz LS150 decoders, again powered - as far as the "grunt" is concerned  - by a separate 16V AC supply, but with data signal taken from the traction bus

 

I'm not a 7mm modeller, but I have heard that current flows with O gauge locos can be over 1.0 amp, and if sound-fitted locos are involved , with their higher current draw, then limits on how much current the system can deliver might become an issue. (I happen to think that DCC sound may be better suited to small 7mm layouts than to 4mm - it seems better in scale for one thing - but it may be prudent to seek advice on the amount of current you will be drawing)

Edited April 9, 2019 by Ravenser

[Danemouth]

I've been using a Powercab for ten years and find being able to use it in one hand a real boon.

Danemouth has eleven points operated by the original Cobalts via DCC Concepts decoders - the Powercab can be configured to display the current drawn - with no locos mine shows .14amp - even with a couple of sound locos running it rarely reach .6amp.

 

One of the features on the Powercab is macros which I use to set routes. I've described it below

 

Regards,

 

Dave

 

Regards

Edited April 9, 2019 by Danemouth

[NIK]

5 hours ago, hayfield said:

I have decided to take the plunge into the world of DCC, my local shop sells Gaugemaster, but at Ally Pally whilst telling some friends and other exhibitors of my intending move all seemed to have an opinion that buying a NCE system in my case would be better, now I know this is a very personal and subjective choice and I guess if I ask another group the answer would be the opposite. Anyway looking at quite a few sites many seem to be out of stock of the NCE starter system I am after, The question is there a new version due out ?

Hi,

 

NCE rarely seem to produce new products these days and I haven't seen any new versions of existing products in the last ten or so years since I've been using NCE DCC command stations. I assume the starter system is the Power Cab as there is also the DCC Twin but that has no walkaround controllers and a lot less buttons. I now use my Power Cabs for programming locos at exhibitions (having a single switched output is useful) and a spare throttles.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Nigelcliffe]

5 hours ago, Kingzance said:

Coastal DCC is in Ipswich John and they do supply NCE but presently show the PowerCab as being out of stock. I don't know if they have such an extensive range of test equipment as Digitrains in Lincoln.

 

 

 

Kevin at Coastal DCC has a pretty extensive test arrangement in the shop, and he also takes one out to exhibitions.  It includes most of the "usual suspects" as well as a few slightly less well known options.    Also, he's used most systems in anger, so is able to give decent advice. 

 

I'd say its worth a trip from Chelmsford.   But make contact in advance to confirm Kevin will be in - the premises house several model railway businesses which cooperate, but you need Kevin for the DCC advice. 

 

 

- Nigel  (no longer living near Ipswich).

[cravensdmufan]

2 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

I'd say its worth a trip from Chelmsford.   But make contact in advance to confirm Kevin will be in - the premises house several model railway businesses which cooperate, but you need Kevin for the DCC advice.

Definitely agree that it's worth the trip (for added enjoyment, you could easily go by train from Chelmsford, change at Ipswich - the shop is just a few minutes walk from Derby Road, the second stop on the Felixstowe branch - that's how I go when I visit).

 

Kevin is very helpful indeed - he advised me how to upgrade my Powercab to a 5amp system using a booster which worked out to be much more economical than NCE's own booster.  He also advised me on wiring.  My layout works so much better after a visit to Kevin.  Top man! (No connection, just a very satisfied customer).  

[imt]

I must express my disappointment too that NCE do not seem to update or extend their range.  Certain things could do with more modern and more capable chips put in them - all that said I have used it for 5 years and ALL of my equipment does EXACTLY what it says on the tin!  You cannot ask for more I don't think.  I started with a PowerPro, then added a ProCab, when my requirements exceeded the available macros in the PowerCab I added 2 NCE MiniPanels to control accessories.  When I needed more oomph I upgraded to an SB5.  Now I have just added a USB connection so I can experiment with using JMRI to control the accessories.  So I can say it does expand - if only in the limited way I wanted.

 

I started knowing nothing and learned.  Maybe if I started again I'd have something with CabBus or better accessory control.

 

As all those above have said - try to get some advice.  But don't panic, 'cos most systems are expandable and developable in various ways.

 

Good luck.

[NIK]

Hi,

 

There's one thing I forgot - I don't think NCE's command stations allow Railcom feedback from Railcom DCC decoders. So if Railcom feedback is essential to you then you might need to do a bit more research on NCE.

 

Quite a few of the budget decoders from Lenz, ESU and Zimo feature Railcom feedback although the last time I looked there was not a lot of feedback detectors on the market (to extract the Railcom feedback messages from the DCC bus).

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Izzy]

I would also suggest as others that you have some kind of ‘hands on’ with systems before taking the plunge. Having spent months poring over spec sheets and taking advice in person and online I knew exactly what I wanted when I walked into a local shop. Saw it in action, didn’t like it at all,  came out with something entirely different. Since be told numerous times there are much better ones around, but it suits me fine. So a very personal thing I feel, and understanding that none of them are perfect, odd little differences or features, helps a lot. 

 

In respect of Coastal DCC/Kevin Dickerson wise to phone first before visiting. Especially at present as the last time I was in I was told they were doing another major re-fit, (being done in stages since Kevin took over the UK Scograil bits from Neil), and I don’t know whether all the systems are available for testing at the mo, haven’t been in for a few weeks.

 

Izzy

[Pete the Elaner]

Another recommendation for Coastal. I have found Kevin to be helpful.

A visit to the shop sounds like an ideal excuse for some class 90 + Mk3A travel before they disappear.

 

If you do decide to go with a PowerCab, make use of the ammeter feature mentioned earlier. A clock occupies the top right of the display by you can change this on a PowerCab to an ammeter, which I found much more useful. I usually used less current than I thought, but it will show you if you need to add a booster.

[4firstimes]

The choice of which DCC system to go for is certainly one of preference and definitely worth having a "hands on trial " of the different systems. In my case I chose the NCE powercab the cost of which is very good for a basic system and ideally suited to the running of N gauge . This forum has provided a useful source of supplies of DCC equipment and are willing to help out quickly in response to the questions. I learnt how to use the powercab and all the functions from a fellow modeller who allowed me to operate his layout at a show. The powercab manual is confusing , but you soon get to grips with the basics and learn how to use the advanced functions. I think originally after 30 minutes of connecting the NCE powercab to my layout on Cromer Road -( see this forum ) I had my first locomotive a DMU running and that included installing a chip in the power car and a chip in the trailer , although I struggled to set the correct direction on the power car and the dummy . A quick visit to my local model railway club I was soon shown how to configure correctly. Soon I was operating Cromer Road signals , points and lights using DCC. The guidance provided by the main stream suppliers for DCC one can not fault.  Within 6 months of owning the powercab I had built up my DCC system with NCE Block detectors , Mini Panels , and USB Interphase for use with JMRI. The documentation provided with the NCE system is "basic" and requires an understanding of how everything connects together but there is the NCE forum and the contributors are happy provide assistance. When I was looking at DCC I nearly chose one of the well known others , five years later I m glad that I didn.t The advice provided would appear to be "top notch". Also I would like to add the help from the NCE team in NY , one can not fault , as I found whilst building Arisaig and 16A my block detectors would not register correctly with a piece of NCE equipment , an AIU. An email to the support team at NCE explaining the issue , with 10 days replacement chips for the Powercab had been sent to me with instructions how to fit. That is service and identifies the correct choice. I have two powercabs and my layout Arisaig is operated by WIFI throttle and JMRI , five years ago I never thought I would be able to get on with DCC , but having dabbled in one the cheaper options to test the water , the simplistic nature of the powercab throttles and ease of use is worth the consideration. The only down fall with the NCE system is the wired RJ connections to the cab and powerpanel , the clips to release the RJ plugs have a tendency to break when you least expect. Keep a couple spare is the only advice , I am unable to crimp these style of sockets as I don't have a strong grip to close up properly.

[hayfield]

Thanks again for the input and keeping on topic.

 

Sadly at the moment Ipswich is too far away, so I will have to decide on a supplier then communicate via phone/email

 

I will have a go at using differing hand sets at the club as we have two or 3 layouts permanently set up, as for choice of hand sets the NCE and Gaugemaster are much the same in style and as I have had no previous experience in DCC systems I would assume like getting a new phone you adjust to what you have

 

I am leaning towards NCE and none of the replies seem to any good reasons not to go with them