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Building the Hertford Quad set from Mousa Models/Bill Bedford


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After making one or two comments elsewhere I have been prompted to write up the build of the Hertford Quad set I bought from Bill some time ago. This will probably degenerate into a number of diversions associated with the skills I needed to use or learn, but otherwise, given the quality of the etches, should be a vindication of just how good his kits are. 'Watch this space', as they say...

 

In the mean time, what is a 'Hertford Quad'? The best answer comes, not surprisingly, from Steve Banks: https://steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/355-lner-quadarts

 

In summary they were built for the Hertford East service to run in single sets, so you don't have to build two or more kits!

 

So what's in the box?

 

Opening it reveals four sets of etches for the bodies (Diags 102/3/4/5) and four separate etches for the matching underframes, plus a separate set of droplights and door hinges. No instructions are supplied but these can be downloaded from Bill's site: http://www.mousa.biz/downloads/instructions.html - scroll down to the appropriate section. There are no castings, nor are any roofs supplied (see below).

 

I'll add images in a minute, but first you need to consider some preparation and get a few things organised.

 

1. A drawing. Isinglass covers the GNR/LNER Quads but these are not the Hertford sets. Good enough for a general reference point, but Michael Harris' LNER Standard Gresley carriages covers the specific diagrams.

2. Bogies. MJT, Comet or ABS 8'6" Heavy Duty https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12054

3. Sheet nickel silver - no roofs are supplied and need to be fabricated. I avoid plasticard roofs so roll my own from .010" NS. GW supply a roller that makes this a lot easier, otherwise you will need to rely on rolling by hand. The premise of the construction is that the body sits on the chassis and is screwed on - more later. I have yet to do so, but it may be possible to use the extruded aluminium roofs MJT supplies.

4. A pillar drill and engraving bits. I'll cover that as we go but a key part of the construction process is to open out the slots for the hinges which also form part of the reinforcing method that helps keep the sides in shape. It's a technique that may be a challenge but its not to hard to practice and learn - I can do it!

5. Roof ventilators, buffers and so on from MJT/Comet (or even Shapeways nowadays - they make nice ventilators) - as required.

6. Photographs. Lots of photographs.

7. Source your interiors - probably from the Comet or Southern Pride ranges, though I haven't decided which yet. There is precious little space between compartments so the partitions will have to be thought out carefully to accommodate glazing.

8. Wait until I have made a fool of myself first before trying it out yourself if you prefer!

 

Finally, these are fine etches with a lot of very fine detail, so get to know your soldering iron and your favourite technique - foul up a few bits of brass and so on first until you feel you know what you are doing. I know that sounds a bit patronising, but you will have spent a good few quid on this kit and to be frustrated or disappointed would be a shame for the sake of diving in and making messes you can avoid by making them somewhere else until you don't, if you see what I mean.

 

Next is the pleasurable bit you can take your time over. Sit down with your favourite adult beverage - though tea is probably best for focusing - and get to know these coaches. Know how they look, sit and make a presence from the photographs (Google will help a lot - and use the preserved quint sets to get a feel of 'clean' coaches with visible detail) as well as checking out details on the ends, how the hinges protrude, how far out the door handles are and so on. Then get a good grip on Bill's instructions - they don't quite match the latest version of his etches, but the principles are still there. Look over the etches and get a feel for what bits look like and how they fit together.

 

At the very least, I feel it would be unwise to start anything without Harris' book, Steve banks web site, the kit and a confidence in your soldering. The rest can develop as we go...

 

 

 

Edited by EHertsGER
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Opening it reveals the following:IMG_1372.JPG.83a460c4ca83f8f0f85957cbfd402190.JPG

 

This is the brake end and comprises a set of sides with separate lower panel and a set of underframe etches, including battery boxes and articulation mechanism, v hangers, queen posts, steps and brackets, solebar overlays, body mounting bracket and bogie mounting bracket. The other three sets look more or less the same, but if you'd like to see them, please ask.

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And this too...

 

IMG_1377.JPG.12f5b81b182e7cb1c78aebf364ea4640.JPG

 

This is a set of hinges set in threes on a backing piece that sets the curvature of the sides plus  droplights, grab handles, door handles and ventilators to make up the numbers - there are some ventilators on each diagram etch - for the whole set.

Edited by EHertsGER
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I shall follow this with interest as someone who was brought up in Palmers Green in the 50's. Most Saturdays were spent in a set of quad arts behind an N2/L1 to KX to spend the day at Platform 10.

 

When I fancied a change it was down to Silver Street to pick up another quad art set behind an N7 to Liverpool Street. I hadn't appreciated they were different, so I look forward to learning a lot more about the coaching stock that was so much a part of my childhood.

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3 hours ago, Bucoops said:

Watching with interest too as I intend to sell a kidney for a quint set. Not that I think it's overpriced - Bill's designs are well worth it.

 

G'Day Folks

 

Well you do have a spare..........Kidney, that is.

 

manna

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30 minutes ago, gobbler said:

I'll be watching with interest too.

 

Have thought about scratch building these.  One of my all time favourite photos is of the N7 hauling the quad arts up in Holt, Norfolk.

 

Scott

 

Totally agree - even if the N7 was in the wrong livery (slight issue with the boiler design to back-date it to LNER...)

 

 

DSCF1991.JPG

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That's the one.

Just need oxford rail to pull their fingers out and give us one of these N7's.

 

Incidently,  the N7 is at chappel, i only found this out when i went to the Braintree & Halstead MRC on monday night.  There HQ is on this wonderful museum's site.

 

Sorry to hijack the thread for the last couple of replys......all yours now.

 

Scott

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

Now this is where the work starts in earnest. Assuming you have all your preparation done and the etched frets in front of you, it is probably best to start with one complete carriage and built the next then the next and so on. Due to the slightly different construction of the brake that includes an inset brake section, for example, I felt we should go with this one first.

 

So, to the door hinges. On the rear face to the side and lower side etches there should be – I say ‘should’ as I found some to be missing – witness marks showing where the door hinge ‘brace’ should be soldered in from the inside to enable two things; visible door hinges and a shaping of the carriage side to ensure a consistent turn-under to the lower side. These are not etched all the way through and so must be opened out. Not an easy task, but one that has been described here: https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=5879

 

IMG_1403.JPG

 

The ‘brace’. Note the curvature for the turn-under begins just above the middle hinge, so we will need to form the shape in both the upper and lower side pieces.

 

Just to be a bore, I begin with a vehement instruction; please do not remove anything from the fret just yet. The door hinges should all line up and if we are going to use the pillar drill approach to opening them out, it makes life much easier when keeping them in line on the table as well as addressing a couple of other things. It also gives us a little more 'landscape' to attach to the underlying sticky tape (no idea what I am talking about? Go off and read this https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=5879 then we can get going.

 

IMG_1404.JPG

 

Above we see the three witness marks in a vertical line that need to be opened out.

 

So what of the ‘missing’ witness marks? I found the best way to approach these was to mark them using a scribe with reference to the ones that are there (hence keeping everything on the fret). Alas in a couple of cases they were missing in places where such reference was difficult. In this event I suggest drilling holes to fit the MJT door hinge etched parts (you’ll need to buy these – if you are building coaches you really should have a set or two in your ‘box of bits’). Where the brace would have been at the rear, remove the hinge extensions then fit the MJT hinges, clean up and add the 'brace' behind while trying not to dislodge the hinge, or fit the brace first, then drill the hinge hole deeper, into the brace, and fit  the hinge. Using a very hot iron (I use a variable temperature Antex setup at 450') you should be able to isolate soldering points and not dislodge nearby attachments. 

 

If the process of opening out these holes fills you with dread, this may be another way of approaching the ‘hinge’ issue. Taking this approach you will also be able to assemble the sides ‘in the flat’, including the ‘braces’ and then drill and fit the hinges. At least with soldering the individual hinge in place you will be able to use some of the solder applied to the ‘brace’ on installation, letting it run into the hinge from behind and, using a hot enough iron, not dislodge the brace anywhere but at the hinge point, if you see what I mean. I haven’t tried that, so make no promises!

 

I did contemplate drilling out the hinge slots, drilling at each end and slitting them with a fretsaw, but I felt that since I had a pillar drill the ‘engraving bit’ solution was for me. If you are going to go down the former route, good luck!


IMG_1405.JPG

 

By now we should have a fret with all the hinge slots opened out – somehow! They might look a bit random, but when we consider their size this is not a major variation in dimensions. Coupled with the possibility of filling out the hole around the hinge when soldering it in, it all comes out well in the end. Just make a note of the technique in the linked article and you will have a valuable skill that applies to more or less any metal coach kit where needed.

 

The next installment deals with assembling the sides.

 

Edited by EHertsGER
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  • 2 months later...
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I don't want to detract from Marcus' build but for comparison here is the Mousa Quint set - again just one of each as they are broadly similar (and for the Quints each body is the same length - some of the Quads have varying length bodies if I recall correctly):

 

IMG_20190703_135612.jpg.7e9af495b3e50668d214974721e68d55.jpg

 

I assume the multiple small rectangles at the top right of the underframe etch are the footstep brackets?

 

IMG_20190703_134326.jpg.673bf992b180018580f2f34e1367059b.jpg

 

 

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I'm certainly not averse to Richard 'highjacking' this post as I believe in the 'two heads better than one' philosophy insofar as we both seem to be venturing into relatively new territory. Indeed I welcome and look forward to interjections!

 

As far as my own progress goes (see photos below, once they actually appear, if you happen to be ahead of me):

 

Initial progress was made by assembling the passenger compartments to the brake vehicle to effect the curvature of the sides, fit the 'hinge brace' as I described above, ventilators, droplights and so on, though omitting door handles and grab handles for now. Fed up with the tedium of that I went straight to building out the body. This is where the lessons began.

 

IMG_1958.JPG.4271544d70ae8d7dc65a6696092c8a46.JPG

(Above) The first attempt sitting on borrowed bogies and showing rather anemic queenposts.

 

It did not take long to note that the etching process, in providing some relief to the underside of the floor and the beading of the ends left the material somewhat thin for the purposes of structural rigidity. Alas this only manifested itself as the build went on, particularly where the passenger and brake compartments met at the 'inset', but I kept going, hoping a final shape would yield the rigidity I prefer in my coaches. Alas, no.

 

The basics are that the etched floorpan has markings for folds that provide the register for the sides of the body when separate from the underframe. The aim is, I feel, that the body and underframe are separable, being secured at each end. 

 

The etched floorpan, when subjected to the heat of soldering on the queenposts, tends to bow along its length, producing a 'humped' cross-section. Odd, but there we are - or at least, here I am. You may be able do better, but the thinness still bothered me.

 

First thoughts went to the MJT 51' floorpans and some minor hacking about, which would be a way to go for those yet to revel in the deligjts of their fretsaw skills. Not for me, with a box full of sheet metal looking for a purpose and a natural inclination to economy. Remember, too, this is a brake vehicle, for which MJT does not supply a floorpan.

 

IMG_1827.JPG.c7bced0db13f4af591d0d62a7ddeda61.JPG

(Above) a new floorpan, partition and laminated ends

 

So, it had to come apart and strength built in. The original floor could have been 'backed' by a laminate, but I felt a new one easier to manage. The marks on the original for the underframe attachments can be transferred to the new floor. The 'rebuild' involved cutting a new floor from 0.018" n/s and laminates to 'back' the ends in 0.015" n/s. Even then the longitudinal rigidity was lacking, so, for the passenger compartments, partitions of 0.015" n/s gave us the shape needed. At this point the purpose - and tedium - of the 'hinge brace' came into question. If I was to provide rigidity to the sides and length with partitions that are necessary anyway (especially the full passenger diagrams), the more basic solution of MJT hinges might be easier than mucking about with the hinge slots described previously. I added more partitions to the brake compartment and found myself with a more solid body. The horizontal brace along the top of the sides was retained and installed to give us the body shown below.

 

At this point I was able to fit for effect an MJT extruded aluminium roof and found it to be a perfect fit; no rolling of roofs for this build! Set aside for later.

 

Onwards for the sake of amusement added the underframe. Not much of this comes in the kit - queen posts, battery boxes and v-hangers only. The instructions downloadable for Bill Bedford's site (Mousa Models) show 0.5mm wire suggested for the turnbuckle rods, but unless you are planning to fabricate the distinctive turnbuckles, I suggest an alternative. Being fortunate in the contents of my kits boxes I opted to use the complete MJT  61' 6" turnbuckle kit.

 

Now, my understanding is that the quads had only two turnbuckle braces (as opposed to the four in the full 61' 6" coaches), but the Isinglass quint drawing shows four. Awaiting the quad drawing, I remain unsure, but the middle two would be aligned differently to clear the vacuum brake machanism. We'll see. For now, I have built it with only two.

 

The turnbuckle rods need to be trimmed between queen posts. Be careful here to get the queen posts and turnbuckles in the right place; fortunately the solebar rivets show exactly where they should be. As for the trimming, I suggest a cut midway between the queenposts and a butt joint braced by thin wire behind. I tried a butt joint at one of the queenposts, but it kept coming loose as work progressed. Many lower-deck expressions later drew the aforegoing suggestion.

 

Vacuum cylinders and mechanism as well as battery boxes are from the MJT kit. The bogie mount is based around a 6BA bolt and the bolster provided, while the articulation coupling makes aimilar use of a 6BA bolt. There is another weakness here, so we'll get to that in the next installment.

 

That's the written part for now. Photos later tomorrow. Over to you, Richard...('back to Richard in the studio...') while I photograph 'one I made earlier'.

 

Bogies will be MJT 8' 6" LNER heavy-duty.

 

best,

Marcus

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Thanks Marcus - not sure when I will be starting my quints but won't be this year. I've been collecting the bits that are needed however - mostly from MJT like yourself. Just a heads up - their casting machine isn't working at present so if you need to order some castings there may be a delay.

 

All the Quints are 43'6" whereas two of the Hertford Quads are 51'? *Hopefully* the shorter body makes it more rigid. It will be interesting to see if you feel it necessary to strengthen the inner coaches.

 

I was going to ask you if the Quad Isinglass drawing shows the position of the brake cylinders? The drawing for the Quints DOESN'T which is rather disappointing but i note you don't have it yet. They are Westinghouse only on the Quints - are the Hertford Quads just vacuum or are they dual? Harris' LNER Standard Gresley Carriages mentions air braking but it's a bit vague. Looking at the photo it looks like vac cylinders are present - but I have no idea what the Westinghouse cylinders would look like to know if they are there (ditto for the quints - can't make it out on photos).

 

Looking at photos I can't see inner trusses but I don't have many of the Hertford Quads. The Isinglass drawings for the Quints show two different arrangements for trusses - inner coaches have 4 trusses in line, outer ends have the inner ones at a different height to the outer ones. The drawings in Harris' book don't appear to reflect this, but photos do look like 4 trusses.

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On from Richard’s comments, above, my plan is to laminate all the ends and replace all the floors; the heft of the thicker material was just so much easier to work.

 

FD4FDC19-0A15-4E47-A8E7-FF89EA19D0C8.jpeg.8fb8de0e656e50151dd9ce985db7c48b.jpeg

 

Inspection of Harris' book (p138) shows Quad set # 159 quite well, revealing four turnbuckles, so that needs to be sorted out. Bogies, I believe were 8' 6" heavy duty at the points of articulation and 8’ 0” at the outer ends. 

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So, here is the object of my attention so far:

 

310BAF1B-AF5E-4BB3-9E3B-01B9E930BE4C.jpeg.d93f0c38ee3b53c0757d357023b17203.jpeg

 

My apologies for it being grubby still. Points to note are the 00.15” partitions. In the passenger coaches the divider is very slim, so anything thicker would make glazing complicated. The underneath has been built out using the MJT 61’ 6” turnbuckle kit (see the above notes).

 

215DD6A4-EDB3-445F-9ACB-5F8CCD3A1D8B.jpeg.8821c0fe9d6fb219a9a8402a41f5e226.jpeg

 

There are one or two things to sort out. The articulation coupling does not seem as strong as it could be, so some thought needed there. I don't mind trying the 'kit' solutions first as they should have been thought out by somebody already. In this case, the theory was fine but the execution - to my clumsy hands at least - impractical. A new solution is in the works, somewhere.

 

Having removed the centre queen posts, they need to go back, but as the turnbuckle needs to clear the vacuum mechanism, they will be a little longer. There is enough metal in the MJT post mounts to drill out and fit new posts a little longer than the outer ones. The turnbuckles - according to the isinglass Quint diagrams, anyway) ran parallel but lower as a result. That takes care of the other two 61' 6" rods, making sure to mate the two halves in the middle this time!

 

The reservoir tanks have yet to be fitted - they would have been in the way if, as it turns out, I was to re-fit the turnbuckles.

 

The rest is just bits and pieces; remaining ventilators and hinges that came loose during the teardown, door handles and grab handles (nice selection in the kit).

 

With that all cleaned up the roof can be fitted. The plan is that the interior will be fitted out with basic seats and some people. Windows will be microscope glass slide covers (the only windows that are actually glass!). Once the interior is done the roof will be secured with white PVA - secure but easy to break open.

 

The finish has to be teak and for that I will follow Mice Trice's method (it has been tried and is very easy! No, really. And fun. Go on, get an old Kirk body and have a go. You'll be surprised. I was. Very.)

 

Only three more to do after this.

 

More anon.

 

Best,

Marcus

Edited by EHertsGER
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Indeed - I have a couple to play with, but looking at the actual prototype (see attached) I am beginning to form the idea of a more robust screw over the head of which a 'cup' fits in much the same way as the prototype. There will be some tinkering on the bench to see if this is a viable solution in the hope that the end result looks exactly like what it is supposed to be.

1A12C7DC-9F77-498F-B460-AE91935BCAF1.jpeg.cca6988e80bcabcf901ae759d7dd58b5.jpeg

 

Stay tuned...

 

Best,

Marcus

 

 

Edited by EHertsGER
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Well, here we go again. Photographic evidence now tells me there were four turnbuckle braces under the quads, and they appear to be even, so that needed to be addressed. Yes, I suppose I have been making mistakes, but the dearth of specific instructions (what? You wanted an Airfix kit?) left me adrift and searching for clues.

 

So, taking a deep breath, the undergubbins had to come off completely as a fresh start seemed a better approach than bastardising what was already ‘wrong’. Another set of MJT bits bites the dust.

 

In doing so I fitted the four braces, this time spliced in the middle and reinforced with some fine p/b wire for rigidity (copper? Nope). Attach them while the brace is in the flat and turn it using pliers at both ends - avoiding stressing the joint - to put the wire on the inside where it can’t be seen. I was also able to relocate the vacuum cylinders to make room for the reservoir tanks that did not fit in the original configuration as marked on the original floor etch.

 

Similarly, the articulation assembly was removed pending further thought, as above.

 

Photos to follow.

 

So, what seems to be a series of blunders is actually me making the mistakes for you, so keep the comments on the positive side, please!

 

best,

Marcus

 

 

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Hardly blunders. They all seemed logical choices to me. It's difficult when there's not an original to look at and I would treat any drawings with suspicion (even well renowned ones like Isinglass - missing brake cylinders!).

 

 

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I made an articulation coupling like this, if it helps:

 

P1020323.jpg.aaee7e9e2b4405255d01616f0565c6fb.jpgP1020325.jpg.dc4d1f9007a714c3eda325817754fe53.jpg

 

The piece in the middle of the upper picture is a bolt with a loose sleeve over it made of two pieces of telescopic brass tube and a washer, the inner piece of tube protrudes downwards into the middle bogie with the ride height set by the washer soldered at the bottom of the  outer (shorter) piece of tube.  The lower picture shows how the bolt (with the sleeve over it) screws into a tapped hole in the bracket on one coach.  The bracket on the other coach is a clearance fit over the bolt and that coach just drops over the other one. 

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Marcus, be careful as the coaches need to be checked they will go around your curves on the intended layout. Years ago I built a quad set from Ian Kirk kit and set the bogie coach ends as you have done but found they wouldn't get around the curves on my layout. Therefore I had to adjust them all. 

 

Then within 3 months the other half accidentally demolished the coaches! Ummm they really need to be repaired but I can't bring myself to do it 8-( 

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20 hours ago, 31A said:

I made an articulation coupling like this, if it helps:

 

P1020323.jpg.aaee7e9e2b4405255d01616f0565c6fb.jpgP1020325.jpg.dc4d1f9007a714c3eda325817754fe53.jpg

 

The piece in the middle of the upper picture is a bolt with a loose sleeve over it made of two pieces of telescopic brass tube and a washer, the inner piece of tube protrudes downwards into the middle bogie with the ride height set by the washer soldered at the bottom of the  outer (shorter) piece of tube.  The lower picture shows how the bolt (with the sleeve over it) screws into a tapped hole in the bracket on one coach.  The bracket on the other coach is a clearance fit over the bolt and that coach just drops over the other one. 

 

Now, I do like this approach. The whole idea of turning the bolt upside-down makes for a much easier solution. The MJT solution is a good one, and I may just resort to that if my tinkering fails, but as one who absolutely must have it looking like the real thing, I reserve my space in the workshop of fruitless pursuits.

 

I take the point about curves - but in my case there aren’t any worth worrying about.

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