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H&M Clipper, any good still?


Lord_Woody
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   1 hour ago,  dibber25 said: 

I have a Clipper that dates from around 1960. I wouldn't use it with any modern locomotive - indeed - I only use it to power accessories. I haven't tried a 'J70' on any really old controllers simply because the risk of damage is too great. However, I use a Gaugemaster Model D - which is over 20 years old - and that is fine. (CJL)

 

OK, thanks for the advice. I'd say my Clipper dates from around 1985, is there any specific reason you say it would damage the loco? I have run my Hornby J15 using it and it ran beautifully, plus in the past an On30 Bachman gas mechanical. I have to say I've never run these for long using it so I'm suddenly a bit concerned. 

 

I was interested in buying a Rapido/Model Rail J70 tram loco, but I read somewhere in the long thread discussing it concerns about using an older controller. I did ask about the suitability of using my Clipper and was advised above, that perhaps it wasn't suitable to run modern locos now. (my response in bold above) Do others use such old controllers and if not, what would people recommend for DC?

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20 minutes ago, Lord_Woody said:

   1 hour ago,  dibber25 said: 

I have a Clipper that dates from around 1960. I wouldn't use it with any modern locomotive - indeed - I only use it to power accessories. I haven't tried a 'J70' on any really old controllers simply because the risk of damage is too great. However, I use a Gaugemaster Model D - which is over 20 years old - and that is fine. (CJL)

 

OK, thanks for the advice. I'd say my Clipper dates from around 1985, is there any specific reason you say it would damage the loco? I have run my Hornby J15 using it and it ran beautifully, plus in the past an On30 Bachman gas mechanical. I have to say I've never run these for long using it so I'm suddenly a bit concerned. 

 

I was interested in buying a Rapido/Model Rail J70 tram loco, but I read somewhere in the long thread discussing it concerns about using an older controller. I did ask about the suitability of using my Clipper and was advised above, that perhaps it wasn't suitable to run modern locos now. (my response in bold above) Do others use such old controllers and if not, what would people recommend for DC?

A Clipper (like the 2 controller version, the Duette) weakness is that it uses a variable resistance mat, which gives poor control over modern low current motors.

 

Much better results would be achieved using modern transistor controllers, such as the Gaugemaster. Other brands are available.

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My dear old dad bought me a Duette and a Clipper way back in the mid 1960`s when I first started Railway Modelling.

They were crap controllers back then and IMO are no better now.

Triang locos and Playcraft Diesels coped with them because as model electric motors they were themselves crude. When you operated on `half wave` control the motors would heat up , rather like the feedback motors we`ve had since the late 1970`s

Of course, back in those days we were happy belting the trains around a circle of track, trying to control things to a more realistic manner was impossible with these old ¬Dreadnought` controllers.

i would never use them on todays modern motors.

I would say Gaugemaster Products are the way to go......

 

John

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38 minutes ago, spikey said:

 

... whereas I'd say that Morley Controllers are the way to go :)

 

 

My `Rolls-Royce` DC controller is a Helmsman

 

DSC01736.JPG.660fcad8126db4caf912a8e09268aa5c.JPG

 

 

 

.....but Gaugemaster are good all - rounders without being too expensive.

 

 

The bestest ever controller has always been the ECM  Compspeed Rambler minor that still occasionally come up on Ebay

 

as does my second best the digitol Gemini from the 1970`s

 

DSC01731.JPG.d38efae31151e1549be62a971d0eb2b3.JPG

Edited by ROSSPOP
To add more info and nice piccies
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1 hour ago, Lord_Woody said:

http://morleycontrollers.com/shopexd.asp?id=46&bc=no

 

I thought this looked interesting.

 

Well, FWIW I have and swear by the standard "non-crawler" Vector Zero Two, which performs admirably down to a very slow crawl, but I'd have gone for that version if it had been available when I was buying.

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Another vote here for Gaugemaster. Have used them for years without any problems on everything from Lima to the latest Bachmann/Hornby. And if it ever does go wrong, they'll fix it for free. (Unless it's your fault of course.)

 

steve

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Just for the record, I have no connection with Morley Controllers other than as a very satisfied customer after two years' use of my Zero Two.  My previous controllers were Gaugemaster.

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The Clipper and Duette were cheap and nasty entry level units.  Drill out the rivets and check the wiring before even thinking of using one. The rheostats have a fibrous core which crumbles, the rectifier diodes fail leaving you with only 1/2 wave  and the wiring insulation on the 1970s ones is dodgy.  The Safety Minors etc and the older ones seem fine.

The Morley is good the wander lead hand helds are the best I have used, but you need a delicate touch with the centre off knob and I find the Morley is not as good as the similar OnTrack, it sits flat instead of vertical and the overload cut out cuts out progressively instead of abruptly and doesn't like tired old Hornby Dublo.

The other pain is the single unit is no longer available.  I hate twin units, I always seem to twist the wrong knob, and as for a Four track unit

Edited by DavidCBroad
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I have an H&M Duette (had it years) anyway I bought a Bachmann Jinty  a couple of years ago and thought thought I would test it, out came the Duette put the Jinty on a metre of flexi..........Ferrari would have been mightily impressed even on the lowest setting it flew!! Fortunately being an ex goalkeeper, I caught the thing before it hit the deck....no damage!!:superman:.Just for testing on the rolling road I find the Bachmann 5 perfect, it copes with old and new motors adequately.

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A similar thing happened to me when I took my new Bachman pannier tank to a model railway club that used a Duette on their DC line, it shot off at warp speed and was uncontrollable. I was concerned that it might have been damaged but back home with my Gaugemaster it was fine again. 

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Somebody posted an oscilloscope trace of the output of a Clipper or Duette somewhere on this forum a few weeks ago.

The voltage was all over the place, regularly dipping slightly into the negative when providing a net positive output.

There were a couple of comments speculating that components had failed...but had they?

Nobody who replied had ever seen a trace from an H&M controller before, so how would any of them know this was a fault & not simply how it had always been?

 

I have never seen good slow running with any H&M controller. They always seem to jump to about 1/3 speed from zero without anything between.

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2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Somebody posted an oscilloscope trace of the output of a Clipper or Duette somewhere on this forum a few weeks ago.

The voltage was all over the place, regularly dipping slightly into the negative when providing a net positive output.

There were a couple of comments speculating that components had failed...but had they?

Nobody who replied had ever seen a trace from an H&M controller before, so how would any of them know this was a fault & not simply how it had always been?

 

I have never seen good slow running with any H&M controller. They always seem to jump to about 1/3 speed from zero without anything between.

Mine is nothing like that, controls my Hornby J15 at a very slow crawl, did the same with my Bachmann Spectrum narrow gauge stuff.

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2 hours ago, Lord_Woody said:

Mine is nothing like that, controls my Hornby J15 at a very slow crawl, did the same with my Bachmann Spectrum narrow gauge stuff.

Someone else who claims they give excellent results!

 

Perhaps you can answer this question. What value resistance mat, does yours have? They aren't all the same. There were 6 variants. I don't have any to check against, but perhaps yours is labelled in some way? A-F possibly? A would be used on large heavy current locos - O gauge and F for finer control.

 

See 3rd last post on this thread for a scan of a page in the H&M catalogue.

 

Edited by kevinlms
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On 10/04/2019 at 16:37, ROSSPOP said:

My dear old dad bought me a Duette and a Clipper way back in the mid 1960`s when I first started Railway Modelling.

They were crap controllers back then and IMO are no better now.

Triang locos and Playcraft Diesels coped with them because as model electric motors they were themselves crude. When you operated on `half wave` control the motors would heat up , rather like the feedback motors we`ve had since the late 1970`s

Of course, back in those days we were happy belting the trains around a circle of track, trying to control things to a more realistic manner was impossible with these old ¬Dreadnought` controllers.

i would never use them on todays modern motors.

I would say Gaugemaster Products are the way to go......

 

John

 

I couldn't disagree more!  I always had very good control from my old H&M Duette, driving my Hornby Dublo in the late 1960s.  They were vastly superior to Hornby or Triang's own controllers.

More recently, with the switches set to Full Wave and High Resistance it runs my Portescap RG4 powered locos beautifully.  I have to add that I don't use it any more as I've gone over to small handheld controllers (mostly Gaugemaster) but still use the Duette as a power source.

I do fully agree though, that nowadays Gaugemaster is the way to go for analog control.

Cheers, Dave.

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On 16/04/2019 at 09:29, Silly Moo said:

A similar thing happened to me when I took my new Bachman pannier tank to a model railway club that used a Duette on their DC line, it shot off at warp speed and was uncontrollable. I was concerned that it might have been damaged but back home with my Gaugemaster it was fine again. 

 

Clippers and Duettes are rubbish but not that bad. If a Bachmann Pannier takes off at warp speed on the lowest setting on high resistance then the resistance mat support has collapsed and the windings are shorting.  Don't use it.  Drill out the rivets for a look see because the rest of the insulation may have fallen apart and you could be millimetres away from electrocution.

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I use both a Duette and shock (not literally) horror - a "Powermaster" without any issue on pretty much all type of motor - track cleanliness plays a good part in controlling stuff - both are in good condition having been with us from new - the Powermaster does have a particularly distinctive "electrical" smell but then I have worked with glass bulb mercury-arc rectifiers so love all that. I however have taken the precaution of fitting each case with a solid earth bond having witnessed the effects of internal component failure on 33kV AC & 750v DC metal clad equipment over the years.

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I used a Duette for many years, and was reasonably happy with the running, I'm bound to say my Gaugemaster hand helds are better for slow running, all on analogue. I have a Gaugemaster Tech6 on one circuit now that has even better analogue running, and can be switched to DCC when I want to play sound.

 

The danger warnings above are however well founded. I have a Clipper used for workbench purposes, which had long emitted a notable humming, and recently started to smell very badly. I assume the mat has burnt through, and I won't be using it anymore - for the moment I've kept it and at some point will open it up to investigate.

 

John.

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On 17/04/2019 at 22:05, DavidCBroad said:

 

...If a Bachmann Pannier takes off at warp speed on the lowest setting on high resistance then the resistance mat support has collapsed and the windings are shorting...

 

It could also be a failure of the resistance switch or an open circuit at the lower end of the resistance mat. In low resistance mode the 'bottom' end of the resistance mat is left unconnected and the mat is purely a series resistor making it a current controller.

In high resistance mode the lower end is connected to the 0V line making the output voltage proportional to the wiper setting- I.e. Voltage control which should give better slow speed control.

 

Any break in the lower end of the mat or the switch will result in it reverting to low resistance rocket mode.

 

 

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Handy for the 12v DC & 16v AC fixed outputs in the workshop & for a microlayout. Also drives an old Expo drill & as a heavy doorstop.  Versatile like that.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, sharris said:

 

It could also be a failure of the resistance switch or an open circuit at the lower end of the resistance mat. In low resistance mode the 'bottom' end of the resistance mat is left unconnected and the mat is purely a series resistor making it a current controller.

In high resistance mode the lower end is connected to the 0V line making the output voltage proportional to the wiper setting- I.e. Voltage control which should give better slow speed control.

 

Any break in the lower end of the mat or the switch will result in it reverting to low resistance rocket mode.

 

It still needs opening up to check what has gone wrong before continuing to use it. If the insulation has failed and it has a metal body... could go live 240 volts...

1 hour ago, Dava said:

Handy for the 12v DC & 16v AC fixed outputs in the workshop & for a microlayout. Also drives an old Expo drill & as a heavy doorstop.  Versatile like that.

 

Agree  Gaugemaster and Morley are nothing like as good as door stops.  Nor do they have such effective overload cut outs.

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