Which Hornby spare wheels do I need?

[Tomathee]

Hi folks,

 

I dug out some of my old trains to try and use them on my sons layout. They've been stored for approx 20 years so obviously needed some work. To get into the motor for this particular one required removing one of the wheels from the tender, which I promptly broke off the axle. I've had a look on the Hornby site at the service sheet for it or the closest I could find and the part number isn't in stock anywhere on google. I guess due to its age there are probably newer versions and the corresponding part numbers have changed, so I'm after some pointers for an appropriate substitute please.

 

The model is James, the only R number I could find on it was R152 on the bottom of the loco chassis, which came up blank. As mentioned it must be 20 plus years old, tender drive. The sheet I found on the Hornby site was number 282, it seems to be the or very close to the one which lead me to the part number - X9383, which only appears on one site, and out of stock. I don't really mind getting an identical look, he won't be bothered and most of it seems like it will be covered by the body anyway. My concerns were that there is also a cog on this axle, although it doesn't appear to connect to anything, and obviously getting the right size (diameter and 'hole' size if that varies).

 

Many thanks for any help.

[DCB]

You shouldn't have had to remove wheels to get the motor out. The centre wheels on many tender drives are on stub axles and fall off as soon as you unclip the power unit from the tender chassis. The wheels then run for many yards and hide under the TV , fridge or dog blanket.   Hornby Tender drives are bad news, they make the track dirty and I have retired most of mine,  The later loco drive mechs are far superior in all except haulage power.

[kevinlms]

Many service sheets can be found here.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/service_sheet_menu.asp

 

R152 has many versions, largely similar. It was their standard 0-6-0 diesel shunter, but used on many models.

Also search for James and 9290.

[ejstubbs]

That site doesn't seem to cover the TTTE range.

 

It does say that R152 is the venerable 0-6-0 diesel shunter, which doesn't sound right for a tender drive 2-6-0.

 

I suspect that the OP's best bet would either be to look for a James tender (or tender chassis) on eBay, or e-mail Peter at Peter's Spares to ask if he knows which part is required, and whether he's got one.  I wouldn't hold out massive amounts of hope for that latter option, though.  On the other hand, there's a James tender on eBay right now, item number 401741687066.  That listing suggests that the catalogue number is R.852 (although that also seems to be the catalogue number of the LMS Ivatt 2-6-0).  Then again, if you're patient you might be able to pick up a complete R.852 Thomas for only £33 on Monday (item number 173867039727: condition looks a bit "played with" but you should be able to mix and match the good bits from both).

 

This service sheet does look right for the tender drive James.  It gives the catalogue number as R852, and shows the tender wheelset as being part number X9383, per the OP.

[RedgateModels]

Service sheet is 280/282, but it only lists the six tender wheels as a set - X9383 - not much help as I can't find anyone selling that set. I'll have a look tonight to see if I can cross reference to a "standard" tender drive wheelset ....

 

Ha! beaten to it by @ejstubbs 

Edited April 11, 2019 by RedgateModels

[Graham456]

I am wondering from the wording (broke of the axel) if it's not a case of needing a new wheel but that the little stub axel has broken off the main chassis block ? So it's a new tender drive chassis that is really needed

 

not as scary as it sounds tomathee 

[Scrapman]

If the locomotive concerned is 20 years old the current service sheet may not be the correct one. Current service sheet would be for a 5 pole motor the model may well have a 3 pole motor. The tender used for both James and Gordon was the old, Margate era Schools class one. The wherls for this tender could also be found on the tenders for other locomotives eg.A3, A4, B17& D49.

Also I believe on the Class 86 also.

Only thing to watch out for is the brass centre axel on the Schools/A3/A4 drives. Not sure of the part numbers as I cannot locate my service sheets at the moment.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Ray

[RedgateModels]

No stub axles on this loco, full axle as the outer two 

[Tomathee]

Thank you all for the replies, some of the terminology is a bit beyond me so I'll add some photos to help my possible poor explanation....

 

19 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

You shouldn't have had to remove wheels to get the motor out. The centre wheels on many tender drives are on stub axles and fall off as soon as you unclip the power unit from the tender chassis. The wheels then run for many yards and hide under the TV , fridge or dog blanket.   Hornby Tender drives are bad news, they make the track dirty and I have retired most of mine,  The later loco drive mechs are far superior in all except haulage power.

 

Thanks David, if I understand what stub axles are then I don't think this has them, it runs all the way through. It's a pretty solid unit and took me ages to get it apart as far as I have, the motor doesn't separate from the main piece holding the wheels. The first photo shows where the cover sits and would have been covered by the middle wheel. The pins/lugs/whatever on the left and right of the cover made it impossible to get off without removing the wheel. The second photo shows it from the other side, along with the hole that the axle went through. The third photo is the broken wheel/axle, I'd assume the centre of the wheel has a piece that should be attached to the main axle that I became too enthusiastic in levering off. Looking at it now I guess I should have knocked the middle through with a hammer or something??

 

 

 

9 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Many service sheets can be found here.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/service_sheet_menu.asp

 

R152 has many versions, largely similar. It was their standard 0-6-0 diesel shunter, but used on many models.

Also search for James and 9290.

Thanks Kevin, I had a look for other James and the reference, it seems less similar to the sheet I found. Even so, the spare wheels for the one you suggested are also not available anywhere...

 

5 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

That site doesn't seem to cover the TTTE range.

 

It does say that R152 is the venerable 0-6-0 diesel shunter, which doesn't sound right for a tender drive 2-6-0.

 

I suspect that the OP's best bet would either be to look for a James tender (or tender chassis) on eBay, or e-mail Peter at Peter's Spares to ask if he knows which part is required, and whether he's got one.  I wouldn't hold out massive amounts of hope for that latter option, though.  On the other hand, there's a James tender on eBay right now, item number 401741687066.  That listing suggests that the catalogue number is R.852 (although that also seems to be the catalogue number of the LMS Ivatt 2-6-0).  Then again, if you're patient you might be able to pick up a complete R.852 Thomas for only £33 on Monday (item number 173867039727: condition looks a bit "played with" but you should be able to mix and match the good bits from both).

 

This service sheet does look right for the tender drive James.  It gives the catalogue number as R852, and shows the tender wheelset as being part number X9383, per the OP.

Thanks, that service sheet is the one I found and seems to be correct in most places. I will look into ebay and contact Peters spares. I'm not too bothered about replacing as there's a couple of other old ones I can tempt him away with (Thomas & Percy), and I think if he had his way it would all be dropped in favour of a Mallard.

 

 

5 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

Service sheet is 280/282, but it only lists the six tender wheels as a set - X9383 - not much help as I can't find anyone selling that set. I'll have a look tonight to see if I can cross reference to a "standard" tender drive wheelset ....

 

Ha! beaten to it by @ejstubbs 

Thanks for looking into it, I was hoping there would be enough similarity with other types of tender that alternatives would be a good option.

 

 

4 hours ago, Graham456 said:

I am wondering from the wording (broke of the axel) if it's not a case of needing a new wheel but that the little stub axel has broken off the main chassis block ? So it's a new tender drive chassis that is really needed

 

not as scary as it sounds tomathee 

Cheers, I think as mentioned it's not a stub axle (assuming my understanding is correct), and if it comes to it I think it will still work with the two axles once it's oiled and put back together.

 

 

3 hours ago, Scrapman said:

If the locomotive concerned is 20 years old the current service sheet may not be the correct one. Current service sheet would be for a 5 pole motor the model may well have a 3 pole motor. The tender used for both James and Gordon was the old, Margate era Schools class one. The wherls for this tender could also be found on the tenders for other locomotives eg.A3, A4, B17& D49.

Also I believe on the Class 86 also.

Only thing to watch out for is the brass centre axel on the Schools/A3/A4 drives. Not sure of the part numbers as I cannot locate my service sheets at the moment.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Ray

Thanks Ray, no idea if it is 3 or 5 pole, maybe the photos help? I'll look into the alternative models you suggested and see if their wheels are suitable, if I get desperate it's only a few £ for a lot of these sets.

 

 

1 hour ago, RedgateModels said:

No stub axles on this loco, full axle as the outer two 

Thanks for confirming, I think that's why it has a cog on, if it was sold as a set of three it wouldn't matter which was put in what place.

 

 

Further annoyance when finding another of these unhelpful R numbers on the inside of the wheel - R351 brings up a Thomas model....

I will look at and contact what I said above, and I'm also lucky enough to have a model shop not a million miles away that might be able to help, but it will be some time before I'm in that vicinity and a four year old knows little patience. In the meantime if anyone comes across further useful information it would be much appreciated.

Thanks again

Tom

[RedgateModels]

Didn't get chance tonight, will try tomorrow, but looking at your Pic they may be the same wheels as the tender drive flying Scotsman etc. I might have spares

[Scrapman]

That is most certainly a schools tender drive. The reason you are getting confused is that the James model is a conversion of the old Tri-ang R251 0-6-0 tender loco. Old Jinty block (modified), Ivatt 2-6-0 pony truck and later type 0-6-0 wheels. Body is a stretched R251 body and tender from the schools class. No service sheet issued of the old 3 pole model. Peters Spares do have the correct wheels for this tender. They are the the ones with the reduced size flanges. If Redgate has a centre wheel assembly for a TD Flying Scotsman that will fit.  Just pop off the wheel with the gear on the back, put the axle through the hole and push the wheel back on.

Try to get the wheel back to backs the same as the two axles still in the drive.

 

Ray

[Scrapman]

Just checked on Peters Spares web site.

Part number is X1140. They have it listed more than once, in different colours. Over a hundred in stock of the green ones. £2.35 plus postage. Never ordered from them but those who have praise them highly.

 

Ray

[RedgateModels]

OK, looking At service sheet 133 for the older Schools class, the centre axle and wheels are different from the outer two. Axle is part S2451, insulated (with gear) wheel is X1341 and the other wheel is S4405. I've had a look in my parts list and I can't see any listed, but That's not to say I haven't got any LOL. All parts are available on eBay, you may have to buy two axles though ....

 

Wheels: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-Disc-Centre-Tender-Driving-Wheels-x-2-S4405-X1341GO/153214880438?epid=2295778441&hash=item23ac518ab6:g:XYAAAOSwOkxbv2vF&frcectupt=true

 

Axles: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/S2451-X-2-Hornby-TRIANG-RINGFIEL-TENDER-AXLES-G9E/361797721625?epid=2056615933&hash=item543cd31e19:g:CKkAAOSwHsRYE1ac

 

Pretty sure that Scrapman is right too, although the service sheet does not list the wheelset as an assembly searching for X1140 looks right to me.

 

The reason the axle is different is that these wheels are the same parts that fit over the stub axles on the shorter wheelbase tender drives so probably have different hole sizes.

Edited April 12, 2019 by RedgateModels

[DCB]

The axle has snapped.  I have never seen an axle broken like that. Bent yes but not snapped off. That wheel certainly put up a fight. Maybe try prying the insulated one off first next time.  To be honest I haven't come across that particular chassis but it should be possible to support the wheels on a bit of 2X1 wood with a hole in it and knock out the bits of broken axle with a suitable drift or a bit of old nail so you can fit a new axle. Experienced long time modellers will have spare axles and will spend hours looking for a suitable one before putting the chassis away and forgetting it.  I would expect Hornby Margate to have standardised on on tender drive axle, unlike the Chinese who bung in any old thing, so I would try Peters spares and get a wheelset something like the right one and swap the axle. Again make up a jig to the back to back width with a slot to take the axle and drive the axle out with a drift or a rusty nail and a reasonable size hammer.

[RedgateModels]

If he can get the broken axle out of the wheel and just needs a new axle there are a pair on sale as my link above

[Tomathee]

Thank you all again for the further replies. I've gone with Ray's suggested part first and will report back once delivered and fitted.

 

On the plus side it runs a lot smoother since being cleaned and oiled, so I'm glad I've dipped my toe in to servicing as there's a few more old models that may see new life on my sons layout.

 

Tom

[Tomathee]

To update, the spare wheel arrived a few days ago and was fitted without issue. I had a practice knocking the axle out of the broken wheel before taking a wheel off the new one for fitting. Haven't perfected getting the correct width between wheels so a couple of trial and error runs were needed but all now seems to be running well.

 

Thanks again for all the help,

Tom