Fell Diesel Livery information

[Staffordshire]

  I am looking for information concerning the Fell Diesel.

 

  Which Liveries did this loco carry ?   What was the date of any Livery changes ? Dates of Emblem changes etc ?

 

  What date was the Fell locomotive changed from  the driving wheels being all coupled into two sets ?

 

   Thanks in advance, Ian

[Michael Edge]

Originally plain black with left facing crests on both sides, it's just about impossible to tell which side/end is which in this livery. The centre coupling rods were removed fairly soon after it entered service after problems with transmission wind up. The coupling rods were left bright, cranks were red, the amount of red paint on the buffer beams was minimal, buffers were black.

10100 was repainted in lined green about 1957, this time it received a left and a right hand version of the second BR crest. There are quite few photos alleging that it was withdrawn after an engine fire with a tarpaulin over one end, however it is still quite clearly in black with the 1st crest. The actual withdrawal date was August 1958, the reason given was high maintenance cost rather than unreliability - certainly not lack of power, only the Deltic was more powerful than 10100.

[Georgeconna]

I see Expression of Interest for 10100 Fell Diesel On KR Models Website.

 

https://www.krmodels.co.uk/collections/products/products/the-fell-10100

 

It will be available in Black and Brunswick green in both OO and N gauges, subject to enough interest.  This RTR model will be available in both liveries, and in DCC ready and DCC sound.  It will have a 5 pole motor, ESU LokSound V5.0 decoder, sprung buffers, NEM pockets. Prices will be £140 and £245.

 

21-pin DCC socket with easy access

DCC sound by a LokSound V5.0 decoder

Directional LED Lighting

Heavy die-cast metal chassis with central motor and flywheels giving powerful performance

Separately fitted wire handrails and sandpipes

Spoked wheels

Etched grilles

Sprung buffers

Flush glazing

Available in Black and Brunswick Green with orange stripes.

Expression will be open to OO and N gauges

[The Johnster]

On 11/04/2019 at 21:29, Michael Edge said:

certainly not lack of power, only the Deltic was more powerful than 10100.

The Fell put out 2,000hp, which had been equalled by the Southern Region's 10203, in some ways the prototype for the class 40, and 10203's tractive effort was 48,000lbs over the Fell's 35,000lbs, which makes the Bulleid loco more powerful.  Both were outclassed by the Deltic, but not until 1955.

[The Stationmaster]

On 23/11/2019 at 01:53, The Johnster said:

The Fell put out 2,000hp, which had been equalled by the Southern Region's 10203, in some ways the prototype for the class 40, and 10203's tractive effort was 48,000lbs over the Fell's 35,000lbs, which makes the Bulleid loco more powerful.  Both were outclassed by the Deltic, but not until 1955.

But one big difference of course -

10203 had one engine,

Deltics had two engines,

The Fell had six engines (although only 4 of them, at most, were used to supply power to the wheels with the other two driving the blowers for the 4 main engines)

 

As far as propulsion engine horsepower is concerned the 2,060 hp of the fell was a bit greater than that of the 2,000 engine hp 10203 but was beaten by both the 2,2000hp of the 'Warship's and the 2,500hp of the (=Class45) 'Peaks  before more powerful locos appeared.  As far as power is concerned the Deltic of course outshone them all in terms of engine horsepower but its tractive effort (in any case a subjective and at times misleading measure) of 50,000lbs maximum hardly outshone the EE Type 4/Class 40 (52,000lbs maximum), or the 55,000lbs maximum of the Class 45/6 'Peaks' or the EE Type3/Class 37, and came nowhere near the 66.700lbs maximum of the D10XX/Class 52

[russ p]

Out of interest how do you get a sound file for it? Cant think of anything that would sound remotely like it, must have been a lot of mechanical noise especially if it had straight cut gears

Maybe record half a dozen diesel cement mixers with no oil in the engines and a few brake blocks in the drums!

Seriously anyone any idea what it sounded like?

[jessy1692]

22 minutes ago, russ p said:

Out of interest how do you get a sound file for it? Cant think of anything that would sound remotely like it, must have been a lot of mechanical noise especially if it had straight cut gears

Maybe record half a dozen diesel cement mixers with no oil in the engines and a few brake blocks in the drums!

Seriously anyone any idea what it sounded like?

Im guessing it would gave sounded a bit like a dmu but with engines cutting at certain speeds a lot of mechanical noises

[russ p]

Whether the engines made much noise as they were force blown from the auxiliary engines 

[slilley]

There is this sound film, though I have way of knowing if the sound used is the real deal.

 

 

[SHMD]

Who knows how the damned thing started up - "one-at-once" OR "all-at-once"? 

Either way, I want one!

 

 

Kev.

 

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

But one big difference of course -

10203 had one engine,

Deltics had two engines,

The Fell had six engines (although only 4 of them, at most, were used to supply power to the wheels with the other two driving the blowers for the 4 main engines)

 

As far as propulsion engine horsepower is concerned the 2,060 hp of the fell was a bit greater than that of the 2,000 engine hp 10203 but was beaten by both the 2,2000hp of the 'Warship's and the 2,500hp of the (=Class45) 'Peaks  before more powerful locos appeared.  As far as power is concerned the Deltic of course outshone them all in terms of engine horsepower but its tractive effort (in any case a subjective and at times misleading measure) of 50,000lbs maximum hardly outshone the EE Type 4/Class 40 (52,000lbs maximum), or the 55,000lbs maximum of the Class 45/6 'Peaks' or the EE Type3/Class 37, and came nowhere near the 66.700lbs maximum of the D10XX/Class 52

Agreed, but all were ‘post Deltic’ Modernisation Plan locos, and the question was about the Fell was the ‘most powerful’ diesel until the appearance of Deltic.  Depends on how you define ‘loco’, and ‘powerful’; the Ivatt twins in multiple were much more ‘powerful’ in any sense than the Fell, and the main difference between those and Deltic was that the 2 prime movers, ball park similar in output, were in separate locos rather than one single loco. 

[russ p]

3 hours ago, slilley said:

There is this sound film, though I have way of knowing if the sound used is the real deal.

 

 

 

Cab doesn't look too bad if a bit cramped but would expect it to be quite noisy on there. Horn is interesting a bit like a 76 if it's the right one

[The Johnster]

I'm reminded of the general look of the Peaks' cab, but the door next the driver's seat looks very draughty.  The Westerns had a small cab of this sort as well but the doors were behind the bulkhead and you accessed the cab by a cross-corridor.  This was very narrow and awkward with a guard's satchel hanging off you, and there was quite an overhang to negotiate even before you were inside the loco; the Fell is much better in that respect!

 

But there's a lot to distract the driver from keeping an eye on the road ahead, and I don't much like it...

Edited November 25, 2019 by The Johnster

[steve1]

11 hours ago, slilley said:

There is this sound film, though I have way of knowing if the sound used is the real deal.

 

 

 

The voice of the reporter is so Cholmondley-Warner I could hardly take it seriously. Fascinating film though.

 

steve

[Nearholmer]

In terms of available power at the rail, the Fell did very well because it had a fully mechanical set of transmissions, with lower losses than either a DE or DH.

 

There is an article in Railway Magazine 11/2019 or 10/2019 with performance logs and power calculations, comparing the Fell with contemporary DEs, and the transmission efficiency is appreciably better.

 

And, the use of multiple smaller engines gave some promise of overcoming a problem that railway diesels (And much worse still has-turbines) suffered even into the 1980s: thermal cycling of a big engine due to the “start-stop” nature of rail traction, causing excessive wear and tear, cooling system problems, and excessive fuel consumption.

 

It was a very efficient machine, sort of theoretically perfect, and in many ways harked back to the theoretical perfection of what Dr Diesel and his collaborators were trying (very unsuccessfully) to do in 1911/12 with the very first main-line diesel locomotive.

 

But, or rather BUT, it had about ten zillion moving parts, all busily wearing one another out, and all itching to go wrong.

 

There was nothing wrong with the theory of trying to match engine power quite closely to load, by bring engines on and off stream, but I can’t imagine anyone now wanting to do the same thing with a purely mechanical transmission.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Michael Edge]

Nice to finally see a link to that video - shows just how ridiculously cramped the cab was and not visible in these shots is that there was a lrge casing covering the mechanical fan drive through the cab at driver's knee height. As far as I know this was the only loco with outward opening doors. The sound may well be genuine, it certainly fits what the driver is doing with the controls.

There are many myths surrounding this loco, it did spend a lot of time in works but it did work successfully in ordinary traffic for a long time considering its experimental nature - the real wonder is how BR were persuaded to build it. The centre portion of the rods was removed early on, presumably as a cure for transmission wind up with gear drive and rod drive between the same axles. The regularly repeated rumour that it was sent out without any oil in the gearbox because of a misheard number is almost certainly pure invention according to Adrian Ford who worked at Derby in this period (on the diesel electrics but he was there at the time). It did suffer an engine fire but it was still black with the old crest then, it was repaired and repainted in green with the later crest. After this it was finally possib le to identify which side/end was which since the later crest was applied in LH and RH forms (originally in black it had two LH facing crests). The withdrawal notice was issued in August 1958, the reason given was high maintenance costs - hardly surprising considering the complexity.

[Invicta]

On 24/11/2019 at 18:13, russ p said:

Out of interest how do you get a sound file for it? Cant think of anything that would sound remotely like it, must have been a lot of mechanical noise especially if it had straight cut gears

Maybe record half a dozen diesel cement mixers with no oil in the engines and a few brake blocks in the drums!

Seriously anyone any idea what it sounded like?

 

There's a piece on the Fell on a Paxman history website, which includes some recollection by John Cove, a senior Paxman exec who earlier in his career had been briefly involved with the Fell- this is his description of how it sounded:

 

Finally there was the problem of the AEC auxiliary engines and the Rootes blowers they drove to supercharge the main engines. In the station, with maximum boost required for starting the train from rest the noise from these was hideous, especially as it was added to the noise caused by the radiator fans and six engines also running. At that time a number of competitors were running various other prototypes on British Rail and when the Fell locomotive passed them their service engineers always made a point of ostentatiously blocking their ears!

 

After watching the YouTube clip slilley posted (I think that's the first time I've ever seen film of it actually moving!), I don't think John Cove's description is too wide of the mark!

[SHMD]

It must have been the AEC auxiliary engines that made most of the noise as I have commissioned big Roots Blowers many times (different application) and they didn't sound that load when driven by squirrel-cage AC asynchronous motor - sometimes they were specified/fitted with AC Drives controlling them, and they were even quieter then but AC Drives were well beyond Fell's time period.

 

I do know that Roots Blowers MUST be correctly oiled!  -  Don't as me how I know this.....

 

 

Kev.

[russ p]

The AEC engines must have sounded similar to DMU engines but the fans would have been noisy and four V12 engines wouldn't have been quiet and that's before the transmission and rod noise 

The paxman article mentions a mk2 version,  which I suppose the closest thing to this that was actually built was DHP1 which used a similar transmission 

Why did the fell loco need two boilers? 

[Nearholmer]

Train heating, and making the driver's tea?

[rogerzilla]

It's barking.  Basically Turbomotive, with its six nozzle positions for efficiency, done as a diesel.    Side rods on a high speed diesel look pretty wacky too.

[Holmesfeldian]

This is the other half of the video showing the principle and construction

 

 

[stewartingram]

A fascinating and beautiful piece of engineering there.

 

Stewart

[Nearholmer]

The engineering is wonderful, but what I really like is the style of film-making.

 

Why can’t we have films like that now? Straight to the point; assumes a level of intelligence in the viewer, but explains things beautifully clearly; nice un-fancy photography; reasonably understated voice-over with comparatively little hype.

 

I’m assuming the art of making films like this was learned during the war, when it was a matter of life and death that people understood things and felt engaged and respected.

 

The narrator’s accent is a bit plummy for modern tastes, but there are plenty of actors with good, clear voices, who have accents that are more acceptable to the modern ear. Patrick Stewart Or Michael Palin would be good, but probably a tad expensive!

 

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Nearholmer

[jim.snowdon]

Which, if we are referring to the gearbox, is still with us, having ended up in the NRM's collection. I found it once in the reserve collection, where it was available to operate.

 

Jim