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TTS and Lenz Issue


Kaput
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  • RMweb Gold

I have a Tornado with TTS fitted and a Class 71 using a Lenz Silver Direct.

 

If Tornado is running the Class 71 won't respond to commands until Tornado is stopped (can be stopped with the sound still on, just as long as its not above speed step 0).

 

Class 71 works perfectly normally with other decoders in it and Tornado remains fully controllable at all times.

 

Using a Prodigy Express (squared) controller.

 

 

Any ideas? Tried resetting the decoder and DC running is one of the first things I turn off on decoders...

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  • RMweb Gold

I've had this problem in the past but with different locos. For example, a Bachmann 2-EPB fitted with a Lenz Silver decoder would not budge until a Hornby M7 stopped moving.  The 2-EPB was affected with other Hornby locos moving as well. The solution was to remove the interference suppressor (capacitor) from the M7. 

 

But I had further problems with Bachmann's 2-EPBs when two were together in a consist, with at times quite erratic running. However both now run perfectly but with Zimo 21-pin decoders instead. 

 

I'm also having problems with the Hornby class 71 I have, also fitted with a Lenz Silver direct. At times I'm finding it difficult to stop the loco and it can overrun station stops when used with automation (Traincontroller). I do not know what causes this problem which is not fixed by replacing with a Zimo MX600R decoder either. I think the 71 has capacitors somewhere on the PCB but I can't see where. 

 

I'm using a Lenz LZV100 controller.

Edited by RFS
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2 hours ago, RFS said:

I've had this problem in the past but with different locos. For example, a Bachmann 2-EPB fitted with a Lenz Silver decoder would not budge until a Hornby M7 stopped moving.  The 2-EPB was affected with other Hornby locos moving as well. The solution was to remove the interference suppressor (capacitor) from the M7. 

 

But I had further problems with Bachmann's 2-EPBs when two were together in a consist, with at times quite erratic running. However both now run perfectly but with Zimo 21-pin decoders instead. 

 

I'm also having problems with the Hornby class 71 I have, also fitted with a Lenz Silver direct. At times I'm finding it difficult to stop the loco and it can overrun station stops when used with automation (Traincontroller). I do not know what causes this problem which is not fixed by replacing with a Zimo MX600R decoder either. I think the 71 has capacitors somewhere on the PCB but I can't see where. 

 

I'm using a Lenz LZV100 controller.

 

I know a little off topic, I be interested to know how you have setup traincontroller for station stops. So the post does not get off topic if you so chose PM me if you require help

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  • RMweb Gold

It's not really off topic as it seems the OP is seeing a similar problem to mine. For station stops in TC you merely specify a wait time in the schedule for the relevant block. The train should therefore slow down gradually and come to a stop on the stop marker. After waiting the specified time the train moves off.

 

The problem I am having with the Hornby class 71 with its Lenz Silver Direct decoder is that, just occasionally, it would not slow down properly and eventually come to a stand anything up to 3ft past the stop marker. It would sometimes do this even when no other trains were running. This made it unreliable for automatic operation. No other trains on the same schedule do this. When I first purchased the 71 it ran perfectly for about 9 months before suddenly starting to do this. As it was still under warranty, Rails of Sheffield replaced the loco, but the new one only lasted a couple of weeks before the problem returned. I've tried using a Zimo MX600R decoder as well as a Lenz Standard+ with the 4 accessory wires cut (to eliminate any issue with the lighting circuit) but to no avail.  I suspect it's something to do with the class 71's PCB which to my eyes seems extraordinarily complicated and is probably the root cause of the problem. I've asked Hornby about this but replacement PCBs are out of stock.

Edited by RFS
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1 hour ago, RFS said:

It's not really off topic as it seems the OP is seeing a similar problem to mine. For station stops in TC you merely specify a wait time in the schedule for the relevant block. The train should therefore slow down gradually and come to a stop on the stop marker. After waiting the specified time the train moves off.

 

The problem I am having with the Hornby class 71 with its Lenz Silver Direct decoder is that, just occasionally, it would not slow down properly and eventually come to a stand anything up to 3ft past the stop marker. It would sometimes do this even when no other trains were running. This made it unreliable for automatic operation. No other trains on the same schedule do this. When I first purchased the 71 it ran perfectly for about 9 months before suddenly starting to do this. As it was still under warranty, Rails of Sheffield replaced the loco, but the new one only lasted a couple of weeks before the problem returned. I've tried using a Zimo MX600R decoder as well as a Lenz Standard+ with the 4 accessory wires cut (to eliminate any issue with the lighting circuit) but to no avail.  I suspect it's something to do with the class 71's PCB which to my eyes seems extraordinarily complicated and is probably the root cause of the problem. I've asked Hornby about this but replacement PCBs are out of stock.

Are you able to take a photo of the pcb

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Hi Robert,

 

i looked at the photos you mentioned, it's not that clear what goes where on them but it does look very similar to one of my locos which has no issues with traincontroller. Let's go back to basics ( not trying to make you suck eggs) I assume that you set up the cvs on the decoder first before profiling in traincontroller. Another question what have you set cv 3/4 at these should be set to 0 when automatic operation is used in traincontroller as these settings are done in traincontroller. The next thought is the length of the brake ramp and the distance of the ramp and stop markers. I know you have said other locos are ok but I have seen this behaviour when the markers are not set correctly.

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  • RMweb Gold
1 hour ago, Andymsa said:

Hi Robert,

 

i looked at the photos you mentioned, it's not that clear what goes where on them but it does look very similar to one of my locos which has no issues with traincontroller. Let's go back to basics ( not trying to make you suck eggs) I assume that you set up the cvs on the decoder first before profiling in traincontroller. Another question what have you set cv 3/4 at these should be set to 0 when automatic operation is used in traincontroller as these settings are done in traincontroller. The next thought is the length of the brake ramp and the distance of the ramp and stop markers. I know you have said other locos are ok but I have seen this behaviour when the markers are not set correctly.

 

It's not TC or the CV settings as often it will work perfectly 4 times out of 5 before the issue arises. If TC/CVs were wrong I would expect consistent failure. 

 

I had the same problem a couple of years ago with a couple of Hornby steamers - a rebuilt West Country and a King Arthur class loco. Both were also erratic when driven manually outside of TC, which the class 71 isn't. As these locos were both approaching 10 years old and had been extensively used, I deduced the problem was with the motors and that this was causing erratic Back EMF to the decoders. Both Lenz and Zimo decoders exhibited the same problem. So I decided to replace the motors in both with new ones and they immediately started working perfectly again. But this cannot be the problem with the 71 and I'm assuming some component(s) on the PCB are having the same effect. 

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Hi robert

 

just had a re read of your first post and had another look at the pcb photos. I think the three silver cylinders on the right are the capacitors, although I'm not sure these are the cause as you would get the same results every time. You make an interesting point on the age of your previous motors. Have you tried other manufacturers decoders, and does the issue occur in other locations on the layout or have you not got other station stops elsewhere, maybe try other locations. might be worth a try to remove the pcb from the equation for testing.

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  • RMweb Gold
11 hours ago, RFS said:

I've had this problem in the past but with different locos. For example, a Bachmann 2-EPB fitted with a Lenz Silver decoder would not budge until a Hornby M7 stopped moving.  The 2-EPB was affected with other Hornby locos moving as well. The solution was to remove the interference suppressor (capacitor) from the M7. 

 

But I had further problems with Bachmann's 2-EPBs when two were together in a consist, with at times quite erratic running. However both now run perfectly but with Zimo 21-pin decoders instead. 

 

I'm also having problems with the Hornby class 71 I have, also fitted with a Lenz Silver direct. At times I'm finding it difficult to stop the loco and it can overrun station stops when used with automation (Traincontroller). I do not know what causes this problem which is not fixed by replacing with a Zimo MX600R decoder either. I think the 71 has capacitors somewhere on the PCB but I can't see where. 

 

I'm using a Lenz LZV100 controller.

 

Might have to try removing the capacitor from Tornado if/when I'm feeling brave enough.

 

Next 8pin socket loco I get I'll try the Lenz decoder again and see if it was limited to the Class 71 or the decoder itself.

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  • RMweb Gold

Have you got any other Hornby locos? I found the problem occurred with most of them. In fact it was only when I tried one particular loco that didn't cause the problem that I then realized it was the only one that I had removed its caps from.

 

I believe the decoder for Tornado is in the tender, and with recent Hornby locos the cap is in amongst the wiring. It's easy to see and just carefully cut out. In fact I usually just snip one wire and leave it there. 

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  • RMweb Gold

Got a Q1 which I think was fine while Tornado was running, will have to test.

 

 

Unless Tornado has multiple capacitors fitted its attached at the motor instead of anywhere near the decoder.

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  • RMweb Gold
11 minutes ago, Kaput said:

Got a Q1 which I think was fine while Tornado was running, will have to test.

 

 

Unless Tornado has multiple capacitors fitted its attached at the motor instead of anywhere near the decoder.

 

My recently-acquired Lord Nelson had the decoder socket in the tender and the capacitor was amongst the wires there. It's possible there may be an additional capacitor in the loco but I've found Hornby locos generally just have one.

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  • RMweb Gold
3 hours ago, Andymsa said:

Hi robert

 

just had a re read of your first post and had another look at the pcb photos. I think the three silver cylinders on the right are the capacitors, although I'm not sure these are the cause as you would get the same results every time. You make an interesting point on the age of your previous motors. Have you tried other manufacturers decoders, and does the issue occur in other locations on the layout or have you not got other station stops elsewhere, maybe try other locations. might be worth a try to remove the pcb from the equation for testing.

 

I'm convinced the PCB is the problem and something on it is causing interference with the DCC signal. My first class 71 ran for 9 months with no problem then suddenly started exhibiting the problem at frequent intervals. I have 50+ other locos which run under TC schedules that never show this problem.  The class 71 is temporarily laid up waiting for Hornby to get a spare PCB. 

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