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Bachmann 2 HAP


steve1023
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I've tried to look at the photos of both model and prototype under higher magnification - I'm not sure what shape the "real" handrails are in cross-section but the ones on the model look as if they are square cross-section, which doesn't help them in terms of "bulk".  They do look a bit "over-prominent", but it's not a show-stopper for me...

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5 hours ago, Eats123 said:

Has anybody seen the recent reviews of the Bachmann 2-Hap?

 

I have been looking forward to their release with two on order.

 

However....Please have a look at the full length grabrails for the guard compartment and driver's doors.  Attached photos compare the model to the restored unit.

 

These grabrails on the model are first, easily 5 times the diameter they should be, and second, quite noticably different from those on the 4CEP/2EPB/MLV/ 4TC models so will stand out in any multiple unit consist.

 

How could they do this???

 

I model southern electrics, and own and run every 4CEP/2EPB/MLV produced to date as well as 2 liveries of the 4TC, and am more than willing to support the development of new southern electric EMUs in oo, but this has me seriously considering cancelling my orders for 2-Haps.

 

This does not strike me as rivet counting.  This is a glaring error that will stand out from ten feet away!

 

 

 

 

 

And what do you suggest they do - have them moulded as part of body in the form of raised plastic strip?

 

Please remember that those handrails have to be above a certain minimum thickness for (i) The Chinese assembly staff to actually be able to handle them and (ii) Have any chance of not breaking the moment a customer touches them. That invariably means a degree of compromise is required and results in the model having oversized handrails - there are plenty of RTR steam and rolling stock with similar issues if you start looking closely at handrail diameters.

 

 

Edited by phil-b259
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9 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

And what do you suggest they do - have them moulded into the cab front as a raised plastic strip?

 

Please remember that those handrails have to be above a certain minimum thickness for (i) The Chinese assembly staff to actually be able to handle them and (ii) Have any chance of not breaking the moment a customer touches them. That invariably means a degree of compromise is required and results in the model having oversized handrails - there are plenty of RTR steam and rolling stock with similar issues if you start looking closely at handrail diameters.

 

 

I guess what I am suggesting they do is stick with the design that is  on all the other Mark I  emu's as well as the demu's. 

 

While they may not have been 100% correct, they were petite and not standing out as a problem.  And, if they had stayed with their previous design, they would fit in unnoticably when running in a consist, which I do quite a bit of.

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4 minutes ago, Eats123 said:

I guess what I am suggesting they do is stick with the design that is  on all the other Mark I  emu's as well as the demu's. 

 

While they may not have been 100% correct, they were petite and not standing out as a problem.  And, if they had stayed with their previous design, they would fit in unnoticably when running in a consist, which I do quite a bit of.

 

Petite the previous version may have been - but maybe they were a tad too fragile and meaning lots of duds / rectification work was needed during assembly. In the current economic environment the pressure to minimise the assembly costs (the most expensive part of model railway manufacturing) as well make the whole process a bit quicker may have impacted on the decision to move to a different style for the HAP.

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30 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Petite the previous version may have been - but maybe they were a tad too fragile and meaning lots of duds / rectification work was needed during assembly. In the current economic environment the pressure to minimise the assembly costs (the most expensive part of model railway manufacturing) as well make the whole process a bit quicker may have impacted on the decision to move to a different style for the HAP.

You make a valid point concerning ease and/or cost of manufacturing that I had not considered.

 

I shall see what they actually look like once delivered, and if needed, I doubt it would be too difficult to make my own replacements that are more in the style of the previous models.

 

Appreciate your thoughts.

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1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

And what do you suggest they do - have them moulded as part of body in the form of raised plastic strip?

 

Please remember that those handrails have to be above a certain minimum thickness for (i) The Chinese assembly staff to actually be able to handle them and (ii) Have any chance of not breaking the moment a customer touches them. That invariably means a degree of compromise is required and results in the model having oversized handrails - there are plenty of RTR steam and rolling stock with similar issues if you start looking closely at handrail diameters.

 

 

 

Surely the Bachmann 2 EPBs were also made in China?  The handrails on these seem much finer than the 2HAP (click on photos for larger pic)

 

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/54517/31-380-Bachmann-Class-416-2-EPB-2-Car-EMU-Set-number-6262

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/51205/31-379-WSL-Bachmann-2EPB-2-Car-EMU-Set-number-5771-in-BR-Green

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54 minutes ago, Metr0Land said:

 

Surely the Bachmann 2 EPBs were also made in China?  The handrails on these seem much finer than the 2HAP (click on photos for larger pic)

 

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/54517/31-380-Bachmann-Class-416-2-EPB-2-Car-EMU-Set-number-6262

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/51205/31-379-WSL-Bachmann-2EPB-2-Car-EMU-Set-number-5771-in-BR-Green


They are - but the point is that Bachman may have taken a fresh look at the process for the HAP rather than continue with previous methods in an effort to control costs and speed up production compared to previously tooled models. However because of the cost of fresh toning older models keep their original design.

 

An example of this in the rolling stock world is the Maunsell open 3rd coach made by Hornby. That model has the roof vents done as part of the roof moulding reducing production costs - but the Maunsell coaches released before it still retain their individually fitted vents.

 

 

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On 10/10/2020 at 19:55, phil-b259 said:

An example of this in the rolling stock world is the Maunsell open 3rd coach made by Hornby. That model has the roof vents done as part of the roof moulding reducing production costs - but the Maunsell coaches released before it still retain their individually fitted vents.

Sounds like clever design to me. Maybe they should spend the savings on a marketing agency to work this up as a concept!

 

Edited by Hal Nail
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On 10/10/2020 at 19:55, phil-b259 said:


They are - but the point is that Bachman may have taken a fresh look at the process for the HAP rather than continue with previous methods in an effort to control costs and speed up production compared to previously tooled models. However because of the cost of fresh toning older models keep their original design.

 

An example of this in the rolling stock world is the Maunsell open 3rd coach made by Hornby. That model has the roof vents done as part of the roof moulding reducing production costs - but the Maunsell coaches released before it still retain their individually fitted vents.

 

 

Production moved to China for greater detail at a lower price.

Now it seems China is moving us back to the days of Lower detail at a higher price.
 

Models made 2000-2016 may be the hobbies Concorde era, at least for some manufacturers.
 

Edited by adb968008
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3 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Production moved to China for greater detail at a lower price.

Now it seems China is moving us back to the days of Lower detail at a higher price.
 

Models made 2000-2016 may be the hobbies Concorde era.
 

 

China isn't moving anything - its the British tradition of wanting Roll Royce luxury at the price of an old mini.

 

Fundamentally, most labour intensive manufacturing went to China simply because Western consumers were unwilling to pay enough for products to keep the work in their home countries.

 

As for whats changed, its pretty simple - in the past two decades living standards (and thus wages etc) have risen significantly in China. I for one don't begrudge anyone being paid a decent wage for their work - including having it go up year on year if the country makes rapid strides in its level of economic development.

 

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45 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

China isn't moving anything - its the British tradition of wanting Roll Royce luxury at the price of an old mini.

 

Fundamentally, most labour intensive manufacturing went to China simply because Western consumers were unwilling to pay enough for products to keep the work in their home countries.

 

As for whats changed, its pretty simple - in the past two decades living standards (and thus wages etc) have risen significantly in China. I for one don't begrudge anyone being paid a decent wage for their work - including having it go up year on year if the country makes rapid strides in its level of economic development.

 

Rolls Royce ?

Which British OO gauge rtr locomotive would that be ?
I have plenty of European and US models, which I’d consider to be more of a Rolls Royce.. yes they come with a Rolls price tag too.

But there’s not much I’d put in the Rolls Royce category in UK outline.. you can’t buy it, even if you wanted to... we don’t have a “Broadway”, “Brawa” or an “Artitec” in OO... though the Dapol A4 is a contender, last one before that would be the Trix class 81.

 

We’re agreeing to the point from different ends... yes Chinese salaries have risen, the compensation is the reduction in detail. At some point Chinese salaries will be normalised to our own, our economy has stagnated for a decade and if on that same trajectory our models could be back at 1980’s levels of detail, compromise and accuracy... look at the growing range of generic HO wagons starting to be offered on ebay and Ali-baba.

 

So 2000-2016 I still say was the golden era... but not for every manufacturer.


If you want a HAP you have two choices, buy this one, or buy a secondhand 205 & EPB and take the two vehicles, change the number and a little bit of yellow First class, sell the other two, maybe bit cheaper too.


if hand rails are an issue, it takes about 5 minutes to bend a bit of wire, measure it, bend it again and cut it, then push it in.
 

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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On 10/10/2020 at 20:55, phil-b259 said:


They are - but the point is that Bachman may have taken a fresh look at the process for the HAP rather than continue with previous methods in an effort to control costs and speed up production compared to previously tooled models. However because of the cost of fresh toning older models keep their original design.

 

An example of this in the rolling stock world is the Maunsell open 3rd coach made by Hornby. That model has the roof vents done as part of the roof moulding reducing production costs - but the Maunsell coaches released before it still retain their individually fitted vents.

 

 

 

My impression is that everytime time they (Bachmann and Hornby) try to save cost through fewer parts, unless it is a drastic drop (railroad standards), the efforts made so far, did not save anything. Costing -  it seems -  is a pure financial exercise based on what it cost to produce a similar model in the past plus increases that happened since rather than a detailed breakdown of what it costs to add and decorate each little part.

 

I'm not convinced that using thicker handrails is saving anything and equally do not remember issues over these on the EPBs (I have 3 of them).

Edited by JSpencer
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5 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

My impression is that everytime time they (Bachmann and Hornby) try to save cost through fewer parts, unless it is a drastic drop (railroad standards), the efforts made so far, did not save anything. Costing -  it seems -  is a pure financial exercise based on what it cost to produce a similar model in the past plus increases that happened since rather than a detailed breakdown of what it costs to add and decorate each little part.

You might imagine that to be the case, but the only ones who know for sure are Bachmann. The savings may be internal, i.e. margin. 

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2 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

My impression is that everytime time they (Bachmann and Hornby) try to save cost through fewer parts, unless it is a drastic drop (railroad standards), the efforts made so far, did not save anything. Costing -  it seems -  is a pure financial exercise based on what it cost to produce a similar model in the past plus increases that happened since rather than a detailed breakdown of what it costs to add and decorate each little part.

 

I'm not convinced that using thicker handrails is saving anything and equally do not remember issues over these on the EPBs (I have 3 of them).

 

There is a saying, look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.

 

Equally there are thousands of best practice business books / videos / seminars out there which all effectively look at small things which can amplify when added together - and which bang the drum that continuous improvement, not big initiatives can produce great financial benefits.

 

So, if making the handrails slightly thicker means the Chinese worker spends a couple of seconds less working on each bodyshell, that will translate to fewer person hours required overall. Even a couple of hours per model could still make a contribution,k particularly if that gets amplified by changes / tweaks elsewhere. Similarly if the previous design was more susceptible to damage when being made or when being attached to the model, a more robust design might reduce wastage.

 

Granted, I have no idea of whether or not these are reasons for the design change, but they a perfectly valid suggestions. We know manufacturers are under pressure - rising wage costs, and now the global economic turmoil caused by Covid plus Brexit uncertainties* are all making things hard so it would seem elementally sensible for manufacturers to look at ways of making financial savings through process improvement.

 

* By which I mean the effect on disposable income if certain sectors of the UK economy suffer badly from job losses etc. Not trade barriers

 

 

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I am quite prepared to accept that the lighting in the image I posted previously may exaggerate the dominance of the handrail so it is worth comparing that to Bachmann's own catalogue and website images for comparison. It's also pertinent to reinforce the point that the part is produced specifically for the model, bent wire handrails or the two-part EPB handrails wouldn't have been right to recreate the squarer section form of the HAP handrails.

 

It's nothing to do with cost-cutting/Covid/Brexit/margin allocations; some days I really do wonder why people go off on one on such minor things - it's not a particularly pretty sight.

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I was just wondering, if anyone is going to commission a BR blue with SYWP version of the 2HAP, similar to the 2EPB version the former Modelzone chain did?

6030 was the last of a small batch of 13 units to be finished in this livery, finally being repainted around Feb 1971. 

 

Bob C

 

 

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On 28/10/2020 at 16:21, Blobrick said:

I was just wondering, if anyone is going to commission a BR blue with SYWP version of the 2HAP, similar to the 2EPB version the former Modelzone chain did?

6030 was the last of a small batch of 13 units to be finished in this livery, finally being repainted around Feb 1971. 

 

Bob C

 

 

The problem is that the Bachmann model only covers 6043-6105, none of which carried blue with small yellow panels or green with full yellow ends.

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1 hour ago, robertcwp said:

The problem is that the Bachmann model only covers 6043-6105, none of which carried blue with small yellow panels or green with full yellow ends.

Oh dear, there goes that idea, but thank you for correcting me

 

Bob C

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24 minutes ago, Blobrick said:

Oh dear, there goes that idea, but thank you for correcting me

 

Bob C

I felt similar disappointment when I looked up the liveries but nevertheless I think Bachmann chose the right batch to model as they lasted longest as 2 Haps. 26 of the first batch became 4 Caps 3201-13 but only one survived late on as a 2 Hap. Batch 4 (6147-73) had gone by the mid-1980s and batch 3 (6106-46) had mostly gone by then too apart from a few stragglers. Each batch was distinctly different to the others.

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I ordered initially Blue Grey as I thought this would be one in it's South Eastern disguise while the NSE version would be in a South Western disguise.

 

Yesterday I read this wonderful review and also checked recent photos of the HAPs in Blue Grey and NSE.

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/reviews/Bachmann-2-hap/

 

So it seems now that the NSE is a South Eastern division one while the Blue Grey is a South Western one..... Bref! I just changed my order to get a south eastern division one in an 80s guise.

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5 hours ago, JSpencer said:

I ordered initially Blue Grey as I thought this would be one in it's South Eastern disguise while the NSE version would be in a South Western disguise.

Huh? Did Network SouthEast trains run in the SouthWest? At least, without modification? :huh:

 

The 31-392 has the Kent Coast logo, which must've caused some confusion in Exeter! :o

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14 minutes ago, truffy said:

Huh? Did Network SouthEast trains run in the SouthWest? At least, without modification? :huh:

 

The 31-392 has the Kent Coast logo, which must've caused some confusion in Exeter! :o

South Western here refers to the South Western Division of the Southern Region - in this case specifically the outer-suburban electrified services out of Waterloo. 

 

Getting to Exeter would be a bit of a stretch without diesel assistance beyond Basingstoke!

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Network SouthEast was a 1986 re-branding of the former London & South East Sector. As such, it covered railways from Ramsgate to Weymouth, and indeed Exeter, Bedwyn, Banbury, Northampton, Bedford, Peterborough, Kings Lynn, Harwich, and Southend. It was organised into Sub-Sectors, of which the three south of the Thames pretty much aped the Pre-Grouping boundaries, and former BR Divisions, abolished in 1984. 

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1 hour ago, truffy said:

Huh? Did Network SouthEast trains run in the SouthWest? At least, without modification? :huh:

 

The 31-392 has the Kent Coast logo, which must've caused some confusion in Exeter! :o

 On electrified sections with Thames Link logo in NSE livery yes.

 

You can see a photo on this site at Bournemouth, 5th one down https://sremg.org.uk/gallery/class414_01.html

Which seems to have Thames logo instead of the Kent Coast logo that the Bachmann one has.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Network SouthEast was a 1986 re-branding of the former London & South East Sector. As such, it covered railways from Ramsgate to Weymouth, and indeed Exeter, Bedwyn, Banbury, Northampton, Bedford, Peterborough, Kings Lynn, Harwich, and Southend. It was organised into Sub-Sectors, of which the three south of the Thames pretty much aped the Pre-Grouping boundaries, and former BR Divisions, abolished in 1984. 

But with a Kent Coast logo? Unless it was running as a fill-in, I would've thought that KC emblemed stock would've remained somewhere close to the Kent coast. Or is that naivety beyond measure? :blink:

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