Identify a SE London station

[Porkscratching]

Anyone got an idea where this may be, it's virtually certainly on the SE London / Kent lines I'd think...caption says St Johns, but doesn't look right to me, having passed through there many times... ( tho obviously I could well be wrong). Any thoughts or info ?

[Darius43]

Looking at the aerial view on Google Maps it could well be St Johns looking towards Lewisham with the bridge carrying the line from Brockley visible in the distance.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[Porkscratching]

Ok thanks for checking that out, I just seemed to remember there being far more track passing through St Johns, hence I thought it looked wrong.

Virtually none of the trains I ever rode on actually stopped there ( once as I recall ) frustrating if you live there I imagine..

The view in the pic is gagging to be modelled as it stands..!

[unravelled]

Some history of St Johns, at London Reconnections

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2013/accidents-and-islands-a-history-of-st-johns-station-part-1/

Part one of several, with similar pictures to that posted,

 

Dave

[Oldddudders]

Those sidings, and the platform, disappeared in the construction of the flydown, a reversible road which came into use on the morning of the 20th April 1976, the Tuesday after Easter, enabling Charing Cross trains to run from Lewisham to the up fast line at St Johns without crossing the slow lines or down fast. The road was reversible, with a connection off the down fast, for evening peak trains to make the same manoeuvre. It was part of the push to separate Charing Cross and Cannon Street services further out, thus allowing Borough Market Junction to be simplified. The new London Bridge box and new layout at Borough Market Junction were commissioned over that Easter weekend. On Maundy Thursday, on the last up train, a Bexleyheath to CX service, the driver got a proceed, probably green signal at North Kent East Junction, but the guard didn't see it, because an axe had intentionally been put through the cable to the signal as soon as the driving cab passed it!

[meld]

The picture shows the old Up and Down Fast platform ( since demolished and the lines straightened out for the 1976[?] re-signalling ) and the good yard ( which is now buried under the rising embankment for the Fly over ). If you look at the far left edge of the picture you can see the current Platform and the Jnc Signal Box and in the Top distance is the repaired bridge carrying the Nunhead to Lewisham route following the Disaster.

 

HTH

 

MC

 

[Porkscratching]

That's brilliant chaps, thanks for all the intel, I've had a bit of a read up on St John's , obviously explains why I thought there were more lines through there, by my time there were!

I recall a very 'gashed' together almost unfinished looking, but hefty, iron structure nearby that the trains would often stop alongside, that I guess was the 'military' bridge put up after the crash to get things back running asap.

I'm tempted to get a Charing X return to go by and have a fresh look now after all these years.

[Oldddudders]

The 1957 Bailey Bridge was so decently made that by 1980, certainly, it had ceased to be regarded as temporary on the Civil Engineer's structure register. 

[Porkscratching]

The bit I'm thinking of was certainly 'robust'..

Depending on the route sometimes your train would go over it rather than alongside, I seem to recall seeing on those occasions it had a number of steels just poking out asking to be cut off nicely, but obviously no one ever got round to it!

[10800]

Erm, that's actually my photograph. I think I've posted it on here before, is that where you got it?

 

Taken in 1968. I may have the exact date on the original. Apart from occasional engineer's vehicles and Class 73 the most notable occupant I saw there was the leading undamaged coach of the Hastings diesel set following the 1968 Hither Green crash.

[Porkscratching]

That's amazing!.... It turns up on the internet as a pic in a few places, as mentioned in one of the posts above.

You should be proud to have created that, it's a great picture, its got a melancholy about it, imho a real Art photograph.

Do you have any other frames from the same occasion?

[10800]

 

The above is a previous reference to my original post on the old forum which is where presumably the image was taken from, but the link doesn't work so presumably it's lost.

 

Some of the pictures from the same time are included in my article in Southern Way 42 on the Greenwich Park branch.

 

Thanks for the appreciation of the photo, I was pleased with it (as a 14 year old with a cheap Agfa camera!). At the time St Johns was my local station and I used to commute to school in central London from there. I didn't take any others of that subject I'm afraid.

 

 

 

 

[10800]

PS not quite true, earlier in 1968 I took virtually the same view in snow, and if you're interested I have a dozen or so pics at St Johns in January and July of that year. These were the ones I originally posted on here. I've found them, but I will have to rescan them first. The photo you initially posted is dated 29 July 1968.

 

See also Peter Tatlow's book 'St John's Lewisham 50 years on – restoring the traffic' (Oakwood) about the 1958 accident and the aftermath.

[Porkscratching]

It would be great if you could put them up here, I'm now thinking about planning a model of  this site in the same sort of condition, I imagine the ones in snow would be stunning!

Please do post your other pics if you're happy to do so..many thanks

[Porkscratching]

I also found this rather a nice view, they've pulled the rails here.. Says it's 1971

Edited April 20, 2019 by Porkscratching

[10800]

Nice photo.

 

These next five were taken on 10 January 1968, probably on an Agfa Iso-something (cheap). It was dull, so I've tried to give a bit more contrast to the snow scenes. They're fairly self-explanatory. Apologies for the vertical line down the centre of all these, a glitch on my scanner.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The following five were taken on the same day as your opening photo, 27 July 1968. They may have been taken on a slightly better camera such as an Agfa Super Sillette.

 

 

4DD 4001 leading the 0737 Slade Green to Charing Cross, a regular turn for the DD units at that time. Sorry about the flare, pushing an extra frame out of the roll of film!

 

 

JB E6044 which must have been pretty new.

 

 

Hastings DMU 1037.

 

 

 

17 August 1968 taken from the 0940 Charing Cross - Hastings. Lucky to catch a transfer freight to Hither Green on the Nunhead line above.

 

 

Same day, from the returning 10.43 Hastings-Charing Cross

 

 

These last two I don't know when they were taken, nor what exactly was going on. Could be any time between 1968 and 1970 (when we moved away).

 

 

 

 

 

[Oldddudders]

I think that headcode 40 EPB on the down fast is a semi-fast train for the Dartford Loop, the name for the line via Sidcup. It would have gone across to the slow lines at Parks Bridge Junction and then turned left at Hither Green. Stopping trains for the Loop would have had a 50 headcode, called at New Cross - but not St Johns, I think - and been on the Down Slow, calling at Lewisham . 

[10800]

Hi Ian, how are you doing?

 

Yes, that is quite right. We also had the Dartford services via Bexleyheath and Blackheath/Woolwich, and services to Hayes and Addiscombe. As you say, most trains didn't stop at St Johns - my dad told a story of jumping on a train at New Cross asking the passenger inside "does this go to St Johns?". "Yes" came the reply, adding (when it was pulling out) "but it doesn't stop there".

[Porkscratching]

Thanks so much for these, they're solid gold for what I'm looking at doing!

I used to go up and down on the Dartford / Sidcup line, I seem to remember headcodes of 50 and 51...

I was always bemused that they never stopped at St John's, but ( as also mentioned in an article i read ) the tickets had via St John's boldly printed on them!

For some reason I always remember (at the time I was a regular) that the fare was 47½ p return to Charing X !

Thanks again for the pics, you've made my day.. !

[Oldddudders]

Well, Rod, since you ask, I am sitting on the terrasse as the daylight slowly fades. Even the bird-feeder has lost its customers. 

 

It was said that par for the course at Charing Cross on bad days was having a train for Dartford in all six platforms! With four different routes it wasn't that hard!

Edited April 20, 2019 by Oldddudders

[10800]

15 hours ago, Porkscratching said:

Thanks so much for these, they're solid gold for what I'm looking at doing!

I used to go up and down on the Dartford / Sidcup line, I seem to remember headcodes of 50 and 51...

I was always bemused that they never stopped at St John's, but ( as also mentioned in an article i read ) the tickets had via St John's boldly printed on them!

For some reason I always remember (at the time I was a regular) that the fare was 47½ p return to Charing X !

Thanks again for the pics, you've made my day.. !

 

No problem, glad they were useful. I haven't got them, but the Middleton Press books 'Charing Cross to Orpington' and 'London Bridge to Addiscombe' apparently have some photos of St Johns. There will also be 1:10,000/6 inch and larger scale historical OS maps available. Lewisham libraries (if they haven't all been closed down ...) may still have a local history archive section.

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

I would hazard a gues that the last 2 pictures are of track lifting and recovery, in a novel fashion too, with the crane on the road above.

 

Mike.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think it was only us unfortunates on the Mid-Kent line that got to stop at St John's. Hardly any passengers seemed to use the station.

 

We were informed that the 1976 London Bridge scheme (which disrupted our travel for months) would result in a more reliable timetable. It did. But with trains to Hayes taking 40 minutes rather than 30 as before.

[caradoc]

This has been a really interesting topic, thanks to all who contributed, especially Porkscratching and 10800 for the photos. St Johns has always seemed something of a Cinderella station to me, much like Queens Road Battersea (or whatever it is called now), on a very busy railway with lots of trains passing but few stopping.

[Oldddudders]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

We were informed that the 1976 London Bridge scheme (which disrupted our travel for months) would result in a more reliable timetable. It did. But with trains to Hayes taking 40 minutes rather than 30 as before.

Easter Sunday morning 1976, I found myself as Traffic Regulator in the new  London Bridge box. Fortunately there were very few trains! We had a couple of test trains checking TC actuations and similar things, but I think the Borough Market Junction works were still under way to some extent. Nevertheless it all happened in time for Tuesday morning to run the new service. I was late turn Eastern Assistant Regulator on the Tuesday, and we quickly found the limitations of a key part of the new tech - the train describer couldn't keep up! The signalmen were struggling with descriptions that wouldn't step between berths currently, and as the service got in a bit of a mess it got worse. It transpired that one of the benefits of the system, providing TD data feeds to key stations, was being used to the extent that it was taxing the TD and overloading it. Eventually that system was switched off, and things improved. The system was also being used to provide automated platform displays and that also was, I think disconnected. 

 

As a supernumerary, I was kept at London Bridge for about three months, while the signalling settled down, before being sent back to my substantive post as ASM at Grove Park, steeped in carriage cleaning and booking office checking. Guess where I'd rather have stayed!