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Porkscratching

Identify a SE London station

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6 hours ago, 10800 said:

 

No problem, glad they were useful. I haven't got them, but the Middleton Press books 'Charing Cross to Orpington' and 'London Bridge to Addiscombe' apparently have some photos of St Johns. There will also be 1:10,000/6 inch and larger scale historical OS maps available. Lewisham libraries (if they haven't all been closed down ...) may still have a local history archive section.

 

 

 

Interesting to see one of the double deckers in your collection, I used to see these very occasionally flying through between Sidcup and New Eltham, I was fascinated by the sheer oddity of them at the time, unfortunately never got to ride in one .

I found the " 50 years on" book you suggested (on ebay for a bargain 3 quid ), so that's on the way to me!

I'll look for the others you mentioned and the maps...I've already photocopied , in 2 parts, a section from a very simplified 1916 map showing a ( more or less to scale) simple layout plan that I'm looking at trying some track on the floor to get an idea of it in 3 D as it were!

Looks like I'll need some more ( green) EMUs..!

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16 hours ago, Porkscratching said:

 

Looks like I'll need some more ( green) EMUs..!

 

Blimey, that's an understatement! What do you plan for all the EPBs? Then there's the HAPs on the longer Medway services, DMUs to Hastings etc (I might have some CWNs somewhere).

 

Are you including the Nunhead line? Transfer freights to and from Hither Green, in diesel days mostly local 33s, 73s; 25s from the LMR; and 15s, 16s and 31s from the ER.

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20 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

 I was late turn Eastern Assistant Regulator on the Tuesday, and we quickly found the limitations of a key part of the new tech - the train describer couldn't keep up! The signalmen were struggling with descriptions that wouldn't step between berths currently, and as the service got in a bit of a mess it got worse. It transpired that one of the benefits of the system, providing TD data feeds to key stations, was being used to the extent that it was taxing the TD and overloading it. Eventually that system was switched off, and things improved. The system was also being used to provide automated platform displays and that also was, I think disconnected. 

 

 

 

That brings back memories. When I started at Cannon Street, as announcer, there was a big hole where the VDU should have been. This VDU should have sat in splendour in the middle of our new-fangled station control panel (and which , for those unfamiliar, was meant to give us, announcer and station supervisor, a constant view on a digital map of what trains were where). It meant an awful lot of phone calls between us and the panel man, when platforms or sets were changed from the plan, which happened very often each peak, and led sometimes to some heated exchanges when we were all up against it and someone had missed something on the telex. I think it was late 77 before it was installed and working.

 

St Johns was a problem for announcers at Cannon, Charing X, Waterloo East and London Bridge (E). When things were out of kilter, with multiple delays and cancellations, we would try to tell people their next train to each main route, but the calling pattern for St Johns (and a few others, like Newington, stations beyond Gravesend to Strood etc) could completely catch you out. I was often unaware of Special Stop Orders until the train had left (because so much else was demanding my attention). I have no doubt I got it wrong a few times......

 

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

 I was late turn Eastern Assistant Regulator on the Tuesday, and we quickly found the limitations of a key part of the new tech - the train describer couldn't keep up! The signalmen were struggling with descriptions that wouldn't step between berths currently, and as the service got in a bit of a mess it got worse. It transpired that one of the benefits of the system, providing TD data feeds to key stations, was being used to the extent that it was taxing the TD and overloading it. Eventually that system was switched off, and things improved. The system was also being used to provide automated platform displays and that also was, I think disconnected. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Mike Storey
Repetition due to slow response

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1 hour ago, 10800 said:

 

Blimey, that's an understatement! What do you plan for all the EPBs? Then there's the HAPs on the longer Medway services, DMUs to Hastings etc (I might have some CWNs somewhere).

 

Are you including the Nunhead line? Transfer freights to and from Hither Green, in diesel days mostly local 33s, 73s; 25s from the LMR; and 15s, 16s and 31s from the ER.

Yikes! I'll have to chop it off before the nunhead bit, I've only go so much space!

Ideally if I had room I'd like to make the whole thing from the brick bridge, London end,  all the way to the 'repaired' bridge, which would be ideal 'ends' for a layout.

A quick measure suggests I'd need at least 20 ft to do that, don't think the attic is big enough!

Initially I was looking at the area covered by your original pic with the nice derelict sidings..

Anyway I shall bung some track on the floor just to get a feel of how much I can fit in!

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19 hours ago, Porkscratching said:

Yikes! I'll have to chop it off before the nunhead bit, I've only go so much space!

Ideally if I had room I'd like to make the whole thing from the brick bridge, London end,  all the way to the 'repaired' bridge, which would be ideal 'ends' for a layout.

A quick measure suggests I'd need at least 20 ft to do that, don't think the attic is big enough!

Initially I was looking at the area covered by your original pic with the nice derelict sidings..

Anyway I shall bung some track on the floor just to get a feel of how much I can fit in!

 

20' scenic or 20' including hidden curves at each end?

 

I guess that you would model it looking from the east, in which case the large substation building would make a good view blocker to exit the Lewisham line through the backscene.

 

As to stock, possible to build reasonably priced EPBs and HAPs using components from Replica.

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Posted (edited)

I don't have a 20 ft space to play with unfortunately, I wish I did!... I'd have to at this stage just take a 'slice' of the part that has the most interest and make that, a compromise I know.

I've got currently a 2 EPB and a couple of MLVs all Bachmann , as you suggest , making up some more stock would be the way ahead, me not being wealthy enough to populate the thing with loads of Bachmann stuff !

I'm keen on parcels trains, so there's good scope there I'd think.

I'm looking at ( limited space wise) perhaps doing most of the area below..

 

IMG_20190423_084217_768.JPG

Edited by Porkscratching
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You will need a variety of EMU's and at least a 33 and 73, plus freight stock, for this layout. But, cost-wise, there are plenty going second-hand, which will make it more affordable, especially if you have the skills to upgrade them, if necessary.

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Yes I'm happy to kitbash stuff, I don't recall ever seeing CEP or any corridor type stuff going thru down this way, so won't need any of those at least! Unless someone knows different!

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8 minutes ago, Porkscratching said:

Yes I'm happy to kitbash stuff, I don't recall ever seeing CEP or any corridor type stuff going thru down this way, so won't need any of those at least! Unless someone knows different!

 

Well, it obviously depends on the era you are modelling. But CEPs/BEPs were the mainstay of all the Charing Cross/Cannon St to Ashford, Dover, etc trains from 1959 onwards.

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4 hours ago, Porkscratching said:

I don't have a 20 ft space to play with unfortunately, I wish I did!... I'd have to at this stage just take a 'slice' of the part that has the most interest and make that, a compromise I know.

I've got currently a 2 EPB and a couple of MLVs all Bachmann , as you suggest , making up some more stock would be the way ahead, me not being wealthy enough to populate the thing with loads of Bachmann stuff !

I'm keen on parcels trains, so there's good scope there I'd think.

I'm looking at ( limited space wise) perhaps doing most of the area below..

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_04/IMG_20190423_084217_768.JPG.2bbc2ceb6684e4f13277e5e3ab66c3ee.JPG

 

I think the occasional MLV might have been used on post/parcels from London Bridge.

 

I doubt that a 2EPB on its own would have been seen very often. Usually attached to 2 x 4EPB. Model off-peak services and a 4EPB on its own would be OK.

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I'm looking at 68 / 71 sort of period,  the period of the initial pics where the sidings are in derelict state.

I don't ever recall seeing 2 car trains, possibly 4 or 6 in off peak times...

I'm mainly thinking of the Dartford loop stuff, this being what I remember!

I assume MLVs would be pulling BG , CCT, GUV etc, or on their own...

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6 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Well, it obviously depends on the era you are modelling. But CEPs/BEPs were the mainstay of all the Charing Cross/Cannon St to Ashford, Dover, etc trains from 1959 onwards.

 

......and VEP's!! There are plenty of those going cheap second-hand (or even new.....).

 

Perhaps the OP is confusing what called at St Johns with what used to rush (or crawl very often) straight through it, which were more than the trains that stopped there, for sure.

 

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6 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Well, it obviously depends on the era you are modelling. But CEPs/BEPs were the mainstay of all the Charing Cross/Cannon St to Ashford, Dover, etc trains from 1959 onwards.

Slightly later than that for SER trains via Ashford, that being Phase 2 of the Kent Coast Electrification scheme. I watched CEP and Hap crew-training trips at Tonbridge in 1961, while Bulleid pacifics were still in charge of most important trains. And from 1983 - 2004 I caught a CEP most working days from Staplehurst to Charing Cross or Cannon St. The draughty VEPs were best left alone.

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I dug out an old spotting notebook, and on 19 July 1966 I must have spent several hours on St Johns taking EMU numbers (that must make me a bit odd ...). The vast majority were EPBs, either 8-coach or 10-coach with 2EPB strengtheners. Also several trains of HAPs, although I probably didn't get all the numbers of the inside units travelling at speed. Hastings DMUs of course, and a number of 12CEP formations (with the occasional CEP/BEP/CEP. The most notable recordings were a number of hybrid 6CORs in the 3040 series, made up from disbanded 6PANs and 6PULs from the Central section. I have no record of what routes they were on, but I imagine they were running on the same services as the CEPs. No locomotives or non-passenger trains were recorded that day (which was a Tuesday).

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Interesting!..

Its not just you btw, I used to stand on the concrete bridge near Sidcup and take EMU numbers!

So there were CEPs running through there, and thumpers, obviously you had more selection at St Js than my limited fare on Dartford loop !  I used to note numbers in these odd long note pads that my mum 'liberated' from work, unfortunately I don't have any still...!

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I travelled a lot round there as a youngster to and from school.  Plenty of EPBS.  Peak 10 car sets off peak 4 car.  8 car/4 car over to Nun head and Peckham Rye.  4 CEPS on the coastal services.  Don't forget the 4DDs used together during peak services.  Don't recall the Charing Cross departure but I used to catch it as the 1634 at London Bridge. Freight class 33 71 and 74.

 

The track plan you have shows the high level line closer to its original alignment to Greenwich Park.

 

Although it was fairly mundane in terms of variety, it was great to see the intensive working in semaphore days before resignation in late 60s.

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Posted (edited)

I'd love to have actually tried one of the double deckers !

The map is a 1916 version, I used it as a rough template as its very clear and simple to work from, obviously the high level line I'd need to move, i couldn't find an equally clear rendition of the layout in more modern times, tho I'd think other than the above it would be basically the same.

Here's an early pic 1913, presumably as it was on my map...

( love the signals & telegraph poles here!)

St-Johns-July-1913-HPR-resized2.jpg

Edited by Porkscratching

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I think in them thar days the bridge was the Greenwich Park branch, rather than going down into Lewisham?

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4 hours ago, Porkscratching said:

I'd love to have actually tried one of the double deckers !

The trick was to know which door to avoid.  There were 10 doors in the trailer cars, but only 9 had access to upper compartments.  The crush in the single storey compartment was best avoided.

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The last time I used St Johns station all that was left of the booking office was a small section of brick wall.

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The os map is great, a shame i couldn't click and save it as it'd make a better plan for my purposes,  I've bookmarked the page anyhow, if i can get one of my more 'computer oriented' mates to grab a copy, i will!

 

As regards the DDs, I believe one of the reasons they didn't catch on was the difficulty and delay getting all the commuters off the thing in resonable time at CX !

There's one still existing ( tho not preserved as such) if I remember correctly... And there was a (very expensive ) 'kit' available too at one point it seems..

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Posted (edited)

Interesting to see the signal box in that location in the 'V' of the junction. Later on it was replaced in the location where the Greenwich Park bridge connected to the embankment beyond (which you can make out in the third from last photo in my previous post).

 

As for the 4DDs, it wasn't so much Charing Cross but London Bridge and Waterloo East as the problem stations for transit times.

Edited by 10800
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