K's B set coach

[The Johnster]

I bought a K's B set coach kit off 'Bay, initially because it had fishbelly bogies which I needed for the K's A31 I'm building as another topic (!), but I've decided the coach has a role to play on Cwmdimbath in it's own right, and I will make it up anyway.  It's a Collett flat ended type, similar to E147 as made by Comet but that coach has Collett 9' bogies.  I don't know what E number this coach is; E was used by Swindon to denote brake composites, and an initial squiz at the side mouldings does not show any obvious different spacing between the compartments to accommodate a first class one.  Perhaps it's a brake 3rd.

 

I know some flat end B set coaches were split from sets used individually in the BR period, certainly in the West Country, and am using that as a Rule 1 excuse to employ the coach in this way on Cwmdimbath.  It'll make a good running companion for my Comet C66/75.  I'm having a general modelling session today in between doing stuff to the A31, and decided to assemble the body of this on the basis that it's harder to lose the bits from an assembled kit.  The intention today is to complete the body shell and reinforce it with the bogie stretchers.  These are plastic on this kit unlike the whitemetal ones on the A31.  This is a plastic kit and the only whitemetal parts are the cosmetic bogie sideframes, which are indeed fishbellies!

 

If you've been paying attention at the back (and if not, why not?), you'll have picked up on the fact that I have, for the A31, ordered a 3D printed pair of fishbellies from Stafford Road Works/Shawplan, which is due to arrive tomoz. I haven't actually decided which bogies are going under which coach yet; the ones from this kit which will have whitemetal sideframes are of course heavier and may be more suitable for the all whitemetal A31.   They are the same mounting for both coaches although the stretcher on this is plastic, and whichever coach I use the Staffords under I will have to modify the mounting, which is I believe for Lima coaches.

 

This is the worst kit I have ever come across for flash and moulding pips, and a good bit of trimming and fettling seems to be necessary for all the parts.  The ends are a bit 'moulded' and not very crisp, but the sides are rather good.  Fitting the sides to the ends proved a problem and some trimming had to be undertaken before the parts would sit properly together, and we are now at the stage of waiting for the glue to go off before I mess about with the shell putting the stretchers in; I'll be a lot happier once this is done as the thing will be much more rigid.  Putting a floor and compartment dividers in will improve matters further.

 

Like the A31, this coach'll need a floor and an interior, and I'm not happy with the truss/battery box moulding, very crude.  I think these will be from Comet, and I'll probably bin the kit buffers as well.  Livery will be 1956 unlined maroon.  

 

Ok, back to the fray...

 

[Miss Prism]

The K's is an E116.

 

E116, E129 had no inner buffers.
E135, E140, E145, and most E147 had shortie (1'2") buffers.
A few later E147 had conventional length buffers, and could work as 'singles'.
E167 had conventional length buffers, and worked as 'singles'.
 

Further details

 

[The Johnster]

Thank you for this very useful guide , Ms P.  Now I’ve got some E numbers I might be able to find out a bit more.  The buffer situation suggests that E116 could never have worked split as singles, having no inner buffers, but there are 4 rather nice turned brass buffers with the kit (I’ve just found!).  Looks like my idea of having it as a single coach on my layout relies on Rule 1 even more than I’d thought!

 

At least I now know that it’s an E number and therefore a brake composite.  Once I’ve identified the first class compartment I can put the 1 on the door and the the sausages in the windows.  

[Miss Prism]

The 1st class compartment was at the inner end. Here's a screen grab of Dick Ganderton's E116 pair from a Pendon video, in 1924 livery (which is the year the E116s appeared).

 

[The Johnster]

Ah, yes, I can see now that the inner end compartment is spaced differently and is obviously the first class. 

 

Mr Ganderton’s fully lined coaches are awesome, and mine, in 1956 unlined maroon, will not be fit to be in the same topic!

 

Many thanks for this vital help, Ms P; I now know a lot more about E116s than I did only a couple days ago.  There were flatended B sets during my period at Tondu, but I believe they were E147s, and a pair of Comets are on the ‘to do’ list. 

 

Having finished the bodyshell, more awkward than difficult and I could have done with a third hand (or perhaps a prehensile tail; why did we get rid of those?), I’m putting it aside for now to concentrate on the A31, which with luck could be all over bar the shouting by the end of the week.  I’ll then return to this project. 

[The Johnster]

I've done a little more today in the interests of having fewer bits in a box to go missing; 8BA bolts through the bolsters, nuts secure and the second bogie keeper nuts on the bolts for safe keeping, and the trusses are on on the basis that I'll replace them with something better (and, let's face it, pretty much anything will be better than these flimsy lack of efforts) one day.  The bogies are assembled but do not yet have wheels fitted, and I plan to use the K's coupler bars that attach to the bogies with NEM mounts and tension lock couplings.  When I'm in town tomoz, buying paint for this coach and the A31, I'll invest in a roll of masking tape to mark out the holes and position the drill securely for the shell vents.  These are off centre and I am going to assume that I can use the ones on the Hornby Collett Suburbans as an alignment guide, but I have an idea that on these coaches the vents are half way between the compartment divider bars on the roof.

 

Mr Ganderton's coaches' bogies have a footboard that the kit ones don't have, but the Stafford Road/Shapeways 3D printed ones I've just bought for the A31 do.  I am going to assume from this that the K's bogies are not only incorrect with respect to the footboard but also the tiebar that the Staffords have; I've made a comment about all this on the A31 topic.  Plan is to carry on for now with the K's bogies and build the kit to the instructions except for my added interior, but I may at some future date replace them with Staffords, probably at the same time as I get around to doing something about the trusses and those hopeless battery boxes.

[Miss Prism]

http://www.gwr.org.uk/nobogies.html

 

[Coach bogie]

The fish bellies did not always have foot boards. Dreadnoughts for instance only had a small step to the outer ends.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Miss Prism]

Two very small pics of E116 bogies show footboards in between the axles, and align with Mike's larger pics

 

[Miss Prism]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

These are off centre and I am going to assume that I can use the ones on the Hornby Collett Suburbans as an alignment guide, but I have an idea that on these coaches the vents are half way between the compartment divider bars on the roof.

 

1'0 1/2" from the centre line, laterally. Longitudinally, they were positioned over the centre of the quarterlight closest to the non-brake end.

 

[The Johnster]

Miss P, you are amazing.  Once again, my thanks.  Also Mike for some bogie elucidation.

 

Footboards can be added to the K's bogies, as can the tiebars, and it's not worth worrying about the rivets; Mikes big photos show the Stafford bogies to be correct and the K's incorrect, but it's not the end of the world.

Edited April 16, 2019 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

I think I've got myself in a bit of a muddle with the bogies, and am writing this down to sort myself out as much as anything else, so bear with a confused elderly gentleman and his senior moments, please, and indulge his foibles...

 

The bogies on E116s, according to the Pendon Gandertons and photos from Ms P of real ones, are fishbellies with tie bars and footboards, as far as I can see identical to the Stafford Works/Shapeways prints.  The fishbellies on W 207 W (see the other topic) are also fishbellies with tiebars but no footboards.  They are also apparently shorter than the E116 type fishbellies, but I've decided not to worry about that for now.

 

So, the best way for me to proceed now is to use the K's cast whitemetal fishbellies from the E116 kit for W 207 W, and add tiebars, which should be a fairly straightforward job.  The Stafford printed bogies are perfect for the E116, better than the cast K's ones that came with the kit, and have the correct type of footboards (there were several variations of footboards as well), so these will find a home underneath this coach.  

 

I've managed a little progress this afternoon in between work on the A31, as the weather is perfect for spraying on the patio (I know it's a patio and not a yard because it's got patio doors...).  The bodyshell has been done inside and out, along with the roof, and is now ready for painting inside and out.  

[The Johnster]

I have completed the inside and given the underframe and ends a coat of matt black, and will put a coat of maroon on the outside before I go to bed.  This coach is progressing almost by accident...

[The Johnster]

With the A31 nearing completion, I'm expecting things to pick up a bit on this project soon.  The first coat of maroon is on, but a second and possibly a third are needed to get an even finish; I am using Mr Hobby 'Aqueous Hobby Colour' Purple Red acrylic for the job.  It's a good colour, pretty close to BR maroon and despite the name not at all like the awful purple of Airfix ere B sets and auto trailers, but coverage is not it's strongest point.  But I'm out on the patio in the sun at the moment, and it's far too nice out here for modelling; maybe later...

 

If you are following my A31 topic, then you probably need to get a life and stop messing around with this sort of rubbish, but you'll know that I'm running low on HMRS BR loco and coach insignia transfers, which I'll be needing soon for this coach.  Their Transfer Sales Manager is apparently, and hopefully temporarily, indisposed and everywhere's out of stock.  I've ordered but don't know how long it's going to take, so have ordered numbers and prefix/suffix letters from Fox to finish the A31 and number this coach so they can be put into service.  I'll have to wait for my no smoking triangles and first class sausages from HMRS.  My current sheet is donkey's (at least 35) years old, P C Models not HMRS!

 

This means that I will not be attaching the roofs permanently to either model just yet, as I'll have to get in there to affix the no smoking triangles and first sausages.  I'll be using my usual bodge for this situation, pound shop superglue, which will hold the roofs firmly enough for operational purposes but can be broken off like a cheese cracker when needed.  You then clean up the remains and re-glue the piece, either with proper glue or more pound shop rubbish depending on whether you want a permanent join.

[The Johnster]

Second coat of maroon on and looking not too bad; it's at the point where I can get away with it as it is and I'm not sure that another coat won't obscure detail, so enough's enough.  Nothing to do to this now until transfers for the numbers arrive and I can put them on and matt varnish to seal them.  I could, if an opportunity presents itself, put the floor in but everything else must await the glazing, which in turn must await the varnish, which in turn must await the numbers.

[The Johnster]

I had first class door numerals left on the old transfers and have applied them to the end compartment doors.  The 3D bogies have had their first coat of primer, and seem to have taken the paint well enough; I was a little concerned about this, but all seems well.  The roof sections have also been grey primed.  'Guard' door lettering can be applied today, but it's too nice out on the patio for now...

 

Shopping list; 8BA nuts and washers for bogie attachment, another pack of NEM couplings.  Or an experimental bogie attachment with superglued stud fittings.  

 

Rather out of focus image attached, but it shows the colour well enough!

[The Johnster]

Tea break update.  I don’t know why I ever said I’d finish the A31 before starting this one; in practice the two projects have overlapped and are progressing alongside each other.  I’ve done better today with this than the A31, which has hit a problem.  

 

I had a numbering session after after having some CCT transfers delivered yesterday, and this coach now has an identity, W 7510 W, which is no less correct than any other number for an E116 running singly in South Wales in the 50s.  The coach, having been matt varnished to seal the transfers, now has a plastcard floor, and first class sausages in the end compartment.  No smoking triangles have been put in the other end compartment on the basis that that’s where they are on my Hornby brake 3rd and I’m extrapolating that as Collett’s general practice. 

 

The first compartment divider is in, the end non smoker/brake van one, and the rest will probably follow this evening; I want to get this job done as it will strengthen the structure of the coach, which has been a bit wobbly in the middle hitherto.  Ratio seats need to ordered, and there is now nothing to prevent me working on the bogies, attaching them to the coach, and trial running.  This coach may yet beat the A31 into service!

Edited April 25, 2019 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

It’s certainly won the race to be running.  I’ve finished the compartment dividers, put the 3D printed bogies on (with Hornby coach wheels), and pushed it successfully all over the layout. It runs very freely, though may need a little ballasting; a weight from an old Airfix B set coach superglued under the floor’ll do the biz. 

 

Not on the home straight yet, quite; still to finish interior (Ratio seating, perhaps a passenger or two), needs couplings, bogies painting, roof repairing and fitting, but good progress being made on a coach I only bought as a bogie donor!

 

Ride is about a millimetre high at the buffers, but a little plastic taken off the boss on the kit’s plastic bogie mount will sort that.  Needed cheering up after setback (my fault) on A31. 

[The Johnster]

Ok, sit up and pay attention at the back, I’ll be setting homework on this later...

 

It is very unlikely that the course of human history will ever again require someone to attach Stafford Road Works/Shapeways GW fishbelly bogie prints to a K’s E116 coach, but in case it does, this is how to do it! 

 

The trial fit fit last night was successful but the bodyshell needs to sit lower on the bogies to ride at the correct height.  The buffer height needs to match an adjoining vehicle that you know has buffers at the correct height, in my case a new Hornby Collett 57’ suburban.   You will need to check coupling set and distance as well; don’t worry about distance too much yet, but the NEM pockets need to be checked to be at the same height above the railhead; they are. 

 

The remedy is is to cut off the circular plastic boss on the cross member bogie mount on the assembled bodyshell.  It would have been easier to do this before assembly, but that’s not the way this coach has developed.  I used a slitting disc and smoothed off the cut surface with a grinding disc in the  minidrill. 

 

You now now remove the brass nuts from the 8BA bolt protruding downwards from the cross member bogie mount.  Now offer the bogie print, positioned on the bolt, up to the cross member; make sure the NEM pocket faces outwards if you plan to be using it.  The circular boss on the bogie print will allow the bogie to pivot and give it sufficient vertical play, and the coach is now riding at the correct height. 

 

To retain the bogie on the bolt, the brass nut is replaced and tightened with a nut driver.  Tighten it up to nip and take a half turn back, which will allow free movement but not too much slop.  Make a final check that your NEM pockets are facing outwards, as this is your last chance!

 

Now for the clever bit; very carefully, using a cocktail stick or similar tool, apply a spot of superglue to secure the nut to the bolt.  Last job is to trim the bolt, which will foul on stock rails and the like because everything is a bit lower riding now.  The bogies are now permanently attached to the coach. 

 

Testing in the fiddle yard reveals that the coach will happily negotiate 4th radius but is uncomfortable on 3rd, my sharpest.  I doubt it’d cope with less than this.  Buffer locking tests must wait until couplings are fitted; if there are problems, replace short couplings with long ones; much will depend on your curves. 

 

I’ve also glued a ballast weight from an old Airfix B set coach to the floor, which in turn is glued to the top of the cross members; this floor is not included in the kit.  The ballast weight will clear the tops of the wheels, but might foul if you have very sharp changes of gradient on your layout. 

[The Johnster]

Thought I might try to use some of the seating from the Airfix B set  coaches, but nothing lines up and the floor’s all wrong; it’ll be more trouble than it’s worth!  Back to plan A, Ratio seats, which’ll mean a delay while they are ordered; nobody local has them in stock.  In the mean time, I can paint the bogies, and work on the roof; repair, fit ventilators, and topcoat paint.   

 

There’ll be a shopping trip in the week for couplings and some passengers.  

[lofty1966]

My efforts on underframe

[The Johnster]

Nice work, Lofty.  It’s obviously worth the effort of investing in proper underframe details, which ‘lift’ your model, and I’ve decided I can’t live with the moulded electric cable connections on the ends either, so order pending to Wizard for Comet detailing packs.  As they can also supply the Ratio seating I’ll get that at the same time. 

 

In the meantime I may as well finish the roof, temporarily attach it, and put the coach into seatless service; it’s fairly dark in there and the compartment dividers hide the lack of detail unless you make a point of looking.  The underframe improvements can be a retrofit. 

 

Plan is is to run her in a two coach ‘spare’ set with the Comet C66/75, as in the photo, but turned so that the brake compartment is inwards, just to be different to the Hornby Colletts. 

 

Your work bench is much much tidier than mine!

 

 

[The Johnster]

Today’s progress has been limited but significant; the roof has been repaired and reinforced underneath with Sainsbury’s Cafe coffee stirrers ( is there no end to the uses these wonderful things can be put to).  Ventilators next. 

[The Johnster]

Just done ‘em.  Using Ms P’s dimensions, marked them off 6mm from the vanwards side of the transverse ribs (which equate to the compartment dividers inside the coach), 7mm from the end for the 1st class compartment, and hand drilled the holes 1.5mm.  This gives a bit of wobble room for the final alignment, and needed a bit of care.  Don’t know if my roof plastic is poor quality or just old, like me, but it’s very brittle and another thing I’ll feel happier about when it’s in position and supported structurally.   

 

Glad Miss P put me right about this, as the Hornbys I was going to copy have their vents closer to the ribs, more like a quarter of the way across the

quarterlight window beneath the vent.  They line up pretty well, and I’m feeling pleased with myself.  Feeling pleased with myself at the moment seems to coincide with not doing anything to the A31...

 

Had a moment of uncertainty about the brake compartment; this doesn’t have any ventilators, but does have a transverse rib, though there is no compartment divider for it to sit on top of.  Checking the photos reassured me that this is correct, so, having marked off ventilator positions here that were unnecessary, it’s just as well I checked before drilling the holes! 

 

Cuppa now while the glue goes off, then painting.  

Edited April 28, 2019 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

Coach is now in service (photos on layout topic, ‘South Wales in the 1950s’).  There is still work to do; as yet it has no seats, and I also want new underfittings for it, plus the door handles and grab rails must be picked out in brass enamel.  Now the couplings are on I can confirm that there are no buffer locking issues, even hauled by 8448, whose NEMs are quite close in.

 

So so there probably won’t be much more on this topic from me (day of national rejoicing declared...).  Thank you all for your support, advice, and encouragement.  If any of what I’ve done is of any use to anyone, I will be surprised but delighted!

 

See you all over on the A31 topic...