spikey Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 On the roof of my Bachmann Mk1 suburban brake second, there's two queerthings over the guard's compartment. They're vaguely semi-cylindrical, with their axes across the carriage, and are a scale foot or so long. One's on the 5th roof rib from the brake end, and the other's midway between the 7th and 8th. What exactly are they, and if as I suspect they're additional ventilators, why were they needed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted April 17, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 17, 2019 They're periscopes to allow the guard to view signals without sticking his head out of the window. All Mk1 brake coaches (BG, BSK, BFK, BCK etc) were fitted with them when built. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnb Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 AS fitted to various Southern EMUs, 2BIL, 2HAL, the EPBs and so on Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Steven B said: They're periscopes to allow the guard to view signals without sticking his head out of the window. All Mk1 brake coaches (BG, BSK, BFK, BCK etc) were fitted with them when built. .......... successors to duckets, birdcages an' the like : first appeared on the Southern Railway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted April 17, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 17, 2019 I assume they were used on the Southern, but were in practice a complete waste of time anywhere else as they were never cleaned and you couldn’t see owt through them. I was a guard at Canton from 1970-78, and if I wanted to see a signal from a mk1 coach (IIRC no other types except ex SR had them), I stuck my head out of the window. Mk2s and dmus, even those based on mk1 stock, did not have these periscopes but AFAIK all mk1s with guard’s accommodation did. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted April 17, 2019 Author Share Posted April 17, 2019 (edited) Cheers chaps. So I guess the rearmost one looked astern and t'other looked ahead. Admittedly my Google-fu is not strong, but as I've got nowhere searching for a piccy, I have to ask - what was the setup like inside? Mrs Spikey has visions of something like the U-boat periscope, with the guard (complete with trimmed beard and hat on back of head) resting his arms on the folding handles as he anxiously scans the horizon ... Edited April 17, 2019 by spikey typo 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted April 17, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 17, 2019 'Torpedo zwei, los!' Sorry to disappoint Mrs Spikey, but it wasn't quite like that, just as well given that the casualty rate in the U-boat services was higher than that among Kame Kaze squadrons in early 1945... You couldn't raise or rotate the periscopes, a major drawback for Wolf Pack Kapitan emulants, and there was no magnification or rangefinding; it was just a square piece of hollow trunking with a pair of angled mirrors and a piece of glass at the top to stop the rain coming in. The guard's compartment was walled off from the van space and the periscopes were on the inside of the walls. Also in there was a seat, desk, pigeon hole cabinet, and handbrake wheel, and on the wall opposite the seat the vacuum gauge and brake setter and a food warming cabinet. A visit to any 'heritage' railway running mk1s with a brake vehicle will elucidate, and be a nice day out! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted April 17, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 17, 2019 (edited) ISTR mention in the Carriage Standards Committee minutes in the Parkin Mk1 book supplement regarding problems with the periscopes. When the periscope was retracted a (presumably rubber) wiper was supposed to clean the glass but this often didn't happen - due to problems with the wiper, or the mechanism as a whole seizing up etc. Edited April 17, 2019 by keefer 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60159 Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 2 hours ago, The Johnster said: A visit to any 'heritage' railway running mk1s with a brake vehicle will elucidate, and be a nice day out! Hmm, just completed a guard turn today on SRPS's Bo'ness and Kinneil Railway on Mk1BCK 21241 subbing for our usual Mk1 BSK 35405 - never noticed periscope (on either) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 All of the Mk1 Brake Vehicles had them fitted originally but after the constant problems they had with them - Jamming, keeping them clean etc. they were removed from all but those allocated to the Southern Region, and had been completed over December '63 and January '64. The Southern never quite had the same problems and some were still noted as being operational in the late 80s... Bob 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 8 hours ago, 60159 said: Hmm, just completed a guard turn today on SRPS's Bo'ness and Kinneil Railway on Mk1BCK 21241 subbing for our usual Mk1 BSK 35405 - never noticed periscope (on either) Next time you are on a Guard turn in a Mk1 Brake, have a look on the partitions either side of you - they often left the narrow boards behind that the periscope mirror mechanism was screwed to that ran from about the height of the pie heater (nee' Food Warmer) rather than removing it (they had once been painted matt black to avoid light reflections on the mirror above). Failing that a lot of them have steel patches butted onto the outside of the roof panels covering the holes where the mirror housings once were. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 (edited) 16 hours ago, spikey said: Cheers chaps. So I guess the rearmost one looked astern and t'other looked ahead. Admittedly my Google-fu is not strong, but as I've got nowhere searching for a piccy, I have to ask - what was the setup like inside? Mrs Spikey has visions of something like the U-boat periscope, with the guard (complete with trimmed beard and hat on back of head) resting his arms on the folding handles as he anxiously scans the horizon ... Here you go Spikey - two part drawings that'll let you see what the arrangement was on all Mark 1's - basically two pivoting exposed mirrors with an (Arens) mechanism in between that allowed you to adjust the mirror angles slightly. The top mirror, like the bottom, was exposed so in. theory the guard could clean them - hence the two handles for him to hang onto up near the roof - but what he couldn't do was clean the outside protective glass on the top housing - and that's where more of the problems lay - especially when running behind steam. I've tried to highlight in red, the main components. Once they persuaded the Guards Union's that they were not needed it all got removed. Captain Heinrich Lehmann-Willenbrock.... Edited April 18, 2019 by Bob Reid 3 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted April 18, 2019 Author Share Posted April 18, 2019 (edited) Gosh Bob, that's wonderful! Thank you very much for taking the trouble to post that. ETA - love the 45° "feathers" to represent glass. Never seen that one before. Edited April 18, 2019 by spikey 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 It was the traditional way to represent glass in an illustrative drawing - we were still doing it when I started in the early 70s (I'm not quite as old as that drawing though - it's got seven years on me) Bob. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60159 Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 11 hours ago, Bob Reid said: Next time you are on a Guard turn in a Mk1 Brake, have a look on the partitions either side of you - they often left the narrow boards behind that the periscope mirror mechanism was screwed to that ran from about the height of the pie heater (nee' Food Warmer) rather than removing it (they had once been painted matt black to avoid light reflections on the mirror above). Failing that a lot of them have steel patches butted onto the outside of the roof panels covering the holes where the mirror housings once were. Bob, thanks for this and your excellent diagrams. I'll look at my wee office in a completely new light next turn and see what remains of the periscope system if anything. Pie warmer - always wondered what that wee box was for! Cheers, Mike 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 You can do a direct comparison Mike as that was the drawing for a BSK (that said all of those with the separate Guards Compartment were that arrangement anyway) - Unless they've been removed, the most likely think to still exist, are the small shelf just above the floor and/or the two small commode handles up near the roof - a lot of the time despite successive overhauls, they just got quietly forgotten about. Bob 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted April 23, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 23, 2019 On 18/04/2019 at 08:18, Bob Reid said: All of the Mk1 Brake Vehicles had them fitted originally but after the constant problems they had with them - Jamming, keeping them clean etc. they were removed from all but those allocated to the Southern Region, and had been completed over December '63 and January '64. The Southern never quite had the same problems and some were still noted as being operational in the late 80s... Bob Interesting information about the removal of the periscopes. Were the actual projections on the roof removed as well as the associated equipment in the guard's compartment? If so, would there be any sign of removal on the roof such as patching? David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 48 minutes ago, DavidLong said: Interesting information about the removal of the periscopes. Were the actual projections on the roof removed as well as the associated equipment in the guard's compartment? If so, would there be any sign of removal on the roof such as patching? David Everything got removed David - the two holes in the roof left behind on the outside were plated over - some just butted on and welded and some fitted flush with the rest of the roof panel and the welds ground flush so you could barely see them. The inside got that section of roof panel replaced. Bob. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 (edited) I suppose another reason the guard couldn't clean them outside would be the presence of 25kv close to the roof! But I remember travelling in a Bulleid brake coming back from Southampton in about 1965/66 and sitting in the guard's chair, looking at the periscope and watching the signals. Happy days. Edited April 23, 2019 by roythebus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60159 Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 Bob, I did a brief turn on SRPS Railtours BSK 35185 on Friday and not a sign remains of periscopes - clearly very thoroughly stripped out. (Still to check out BCK 21241 and BSK 35405) Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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