Rails announce SECR box van in OO

[45568]

Just arrived, from Sheffield, to Perth Western Australia.....!

Absolutely superb, thank you Rails, I will await with great interest further developments in this new era of wagonry!

cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[JohnR]

It is a cracking van. Cant wait to see the next project!

[Wickham Green]

1 hour ago, JohnR said:

It is a cracking van. Cant wait to see the next project!

I can't wait to see THIS project ( in the flesh ) ! ............ obviously the grey vans are being shipped first - and mine will follow shortly !

[Guy Rixon]

On 28/10/2019 at 14:36, Wickham Green said:

........... horse hooks !

The horse hooks are surprisingly challenging in CAD. They demanded a disproportionate number of polygons to get the corners right. Much Kudos to the printer for materialising them. 

[Oldddudders]

On 28/10/2019 at 14:06, adb968008 said:

Welcome to the future...

Sums it up. If you, the purchasers, really like this, then the door is open for Dapol to make a mint, subject only to R&D resources and factory capacity. Other will indeed watch, wonder and react. We all win. 

[Stanley Melrose]

It seems that BMW and Ford are using the same/similar type of printer to produce components and tools so the speed of operation, the standard of finish and the cost per part must be comparable to injection moulding for them to take up this method of manufacturing - see <https://www.assemblymag.com/articles/94784-automakers-turn-to-production-ready-printable-parts>

 

Stan

[truffy]

13 minutes ago, George_ said:

 Dapol's documented contribution to this wagon is simply printing the lettering onto finished goods.

My understanding was that they printed the whole thing.

[woodenhead]

23 minutes ago, George_ said:

Apologies for being pedantic, but care must be taken when apportioning credit that it is offered to the correct source. This wagon, like the D class and Terrier are projects is very much specified, driven and mandated by Rails of Sheffield who deserve full credit for the final quality and features.

As was pointed out to me in the D class thread and backed by a quick web search, Dapol's claimed contributions such as innovational couplings and pull out PCBs are actually only simple copies of other companies IP (which I assume Dapol licensed?). Dapol's documented contribution to this wagon is simply printing the lettering onto finished goods.

I know Rails are doing some nice things at the moment in the marketplace (as are Hattons), but you seem to be bigging them up whilst putting down Dapol.

 

However you look at it, Dapol are involved as a partner with Rails and it is something Rails are nurturing as we see the evolution of the D class with the NRM and Dapol.

[Edwardian]

7 minutes ago, George_ said:

Apologies for being pedantic, but care must be taken when apportioning credit that it is offered to the correct source. This wagon, like the D class and Terrier are projects is very much specified, driven and mandated by Rails of Sheffield who deserve full credit for the final quality and features.

As was pointed out to me in the D class thread and backed by a quick web search, Dapol's claimed contributions such as innovational couplings and pull out PCBs are actually only simple copies of other companies IP (which I assume Dapol licensed ?). Dapol's documented contribution to this wagon is simply printing the lettering onto finished goods.

 

Dapol's contribution to the van drew on the existing partnership. Dapol has the facilities in the UK for painting, pad printing, assembling and boxing. They have done this extremely well and have been very supportive of the project. The van could not have been done without them. I would add that there is nothing simple about painting the van; the jigs took some expertise and effort to get right. Otherwise, there was Rails, a CAD designer, Guy for research and CAD input, the 3D-print manufacturer, and Alan Gibson supplying the wheels, with me sat somewhere in the middle of it all. All these people played a crucial role and each had their share of challenges in doing so.

 

True, Rails is the driver.  It is their link to the NRM and commitment to achieve "museum quality" models that is, in my view, crucial, and which has made involvement with them so worthwhile from my point of view.  In this, Rails has a number of partners, Bachmann, Heljan and Rapido, as well as Dapol.

 

However, I do not see how we get from here to belittling Dapol's contribution.  They really did a great job in relation to the van. They are the designer and manufacturer of the D Class. and their designer is doing a first class job.  I was at the meetings when the tender coupling design concept was submitted for approval and then reviewed.  I cannot comment on whether other manufacturers have done similar things, but this is a clever and original piece of design-work/engineering that we saw developed before our eyes, as it were, and it promises to deliver an improvement upon what has gone before. 

[truffy]

17 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Dapol are involved as a partner with Rails and it is something Rails are nurturing as we see the evolution of the D class with the NRM and Dapol.

And the Terrier.

[woodenhead]

22 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

A bit of clarity on how much you are involved in projects wouldn't be amiss....

 

So in your view all three of those models were perfect.

 

Dean Goods - NRM had to insist on changes the model was so poor

Hattons 14xx - Ashpan missing

Hornby Terrier - awful rendition of the inset buffers

 

You don't need to be employed by Rails to put down those models.

Edited October 31, 2019 by AY Mod
Contentious content removed from quote

[Edwardian]

23 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

A bit of clarity on how much you are involved in projects wouldn't be amiss....

 

Jason

 

EDIT:

 

I've edited this response quite extensively.  Essentially, Andy Y has removed the post to which I felt the need to respond and has edited it in other posts that quoted it. For consistency, I've made the same edit. 

In the circumstances, a record of this disagreement is unnecessary.  I must apologise to those who kindly rated my original post, who will now find it changed.  I remain grateful for their support in the circumstances.

 

One comment from Jason's original post remains (see above), and, so, I'll answer this, but briefly, because, again, it's not really the business of this topic.

 

I have been involved in several projects to a greater or lesser extent, generally confined to research, advice and review. I do comment on these topics from time to time; they're not hidden. The D Class is, I think, pretty much the first project with an RTR manufacturer that I have been involved in from the start, as I have said, though, I think Dapol's designer is completely on top of this one and its success will in no sense depend on anything I might be able to add.

 

The van is rather different because this is not a commission to an established RTR manufacturer.  Rather, it's Rails dealing directly with the factory, and a factory with no history of manufacturing a product anything like this. I am not going to repeat what I've already said, or expand upon my role, suffice it to say that there has been a lot to organise and a lot of development work and everyone involved has worked very hard.    

 

I really enjoyed 45568's pictures posted earlier. I'm pleased and proud to have been involved and I hope people enjoy the results.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Edwardian

[truffy]

Just now, Steamport Southport said:

But a bit of openness wouldn't go amiss.

 

AFAIK, James has never hidden his involvement, but never divulged it inappropriately either.

[Edwardian]

Jason,

 

You clearly have a beef concerning whatever relationship you imagine that I might have with Rails, which you seem to believe to be, well, sinister in some regard. Frankly, that relationship is really is none of your business. However, I am happy to confirm that I am not an employee of Rails, and I have not been paid for any of the assistance I have rendered.  In other words, I am like quite a number of members here who consult to manufacturers and commissioners because we enjoy the research and we all want models to be the best they practically can be.

 

Rails made a bit of an announcement concerning my involvement at the recent D Class launch, where, I hasten to add, I believe my involvement was somewhat overstated (!).  This has, perhaps, brought me some undue prominence, but on the plus side it has allowed me to comment more freely here in relation to some projects.  That this has led some - well, you, essentially - to make intemperate criticisms and inappropriate accusations is a little sad, but I would like to think that you are not beyond reasoned argument and an appeal to good fellowship. 

 

Essentially, I got this gig because I was objective in my feedback on models and I will continue to be so.     

[gwrrob]

A heads up to say the SR brown version orders are being dispatched.

[D9020 Nimbus]

I think everybody involved with this project deserves praise. This approach offers a lot of promise for the future, especially in a British context. In many ways the steam-era British situation is unique, with its multiplicity of companies, each with their own designs—even when purchased from outside builders. Only the USA had as many companies—but there, most of the companies used stock from a small number of private builders, not generally designing their own (there were some obvious exceptions). 
 

I hope this wagon is the first of many. I'm certainly delighted with mine.

[Oldddudders]

What on earth is this all about? Someone with no posting history comes busting in and challenges who did what in the development of a product purchasers are delighted with. Why? Does George understand what printing means in this context? It is not just about lettering! 

 

Then someone wants to know what James's involvement is? Why? As James rightly says, there are a number of RMwebbers whose substantial knowledge of prototype is made available to manufacturers on a consultancy basis, to the benefit of us, the customer. And frankly, I don't give two monkeys' twizzles whether they got a cup of tea or a brown envelope in reward for their pains, actually. Why should I?

 

Some people really do need to get a life.  

[autocoach]

2 hours ago, gwrrob said:

A heads up to say the SR brown version orders are being dispatched.

At last my one brown van will wend it's long way to these fiery far distant shores. I am as interested in the technology used to produce this van as the van itself (I could of course just buy a rather inexpensive Cambrian SECR  diagram1426 injection molded kit if I just wanted another SECR van.)

 

I hope there will be some post-mortem of the production technique and its applicability to the production of future smaller run models of wagons and possibly coaches.  I look forward to other RTR or even kits generated with such techniques. 

[phil-b259]

16 minutes ago, autocoach said:

 

I hope there will be some post-mortem of the production technique and its applicability to the production of future smaller run models of wagons and possibly coaches.  I look forward to other RTR or even kits generated with such techniques. 

 

Quite so.

 

And yes, while I am fully aware that the underframe on the ex SECR box van is not suitable for earlier liveries, etc, etc - with the Hattons P, and Bachman's C, not to mention Hornby's H all having been produced in glorious SECR livery, PLEASE can Rails have a go at doing one in SECR condition in future.

[adb968008]

On 29/10/2019 at 08:22, Edwardian said:

 

Wow, that is some review.

 

I think everyone involved in the project: the CAD designer, the factory, Dapol, Rails and Dr Guy Rixon will be chuffed to read your reaction; I certainly am.  Thank you.  Most importantly, I'm so glad you are pleased with them.

 

Things like the door handle and the horse hook you just couldn't do with injection moulding.

 

I saw the production vans at York earlier this month, but I don't actually have these models myself yet, so it is really good to see your pictures of them.  

 

For products that can sell in the identical thousands, 3D-print is no substitute for injection-moulding, which allows for a much lower per-unit cost, provided you can ammortise the very heavy up-front tooling costs.  But with 3D printing, we can make things that otherwise could not be made; the challenge is to make commercially viable at a cost the consumer can accept.  This van was produced to a batch size that reflected the optimum size for the best unit price; sadly if we print more, they don't become any cheaper!

 

 

My favourite bit.  When I saw this feature on a chassis test print, that was my moment of truth in terms of what this new tech and material could do. I always point this out to people and never shut up about it!,

I’ve got to give credit where it’s due, my knowledge of the prototype is limited so I defer to others for accuracy, but I don’t see anything that jumps out.

 

The technology side was the part that interested me, and to see a finished ready to run result in the flesh is tremendous. As I said in the post it’s beyond expectations.

 

I recall a documentary a few years back on Concorde, when the designers were asked, “Are you not disappointed that passengers are paying no attention to the aircraft, but eating their meals, drinks, working reading etc”.. To which he replied along the lines of.. this was their measure of success, if they can fly Concorde and the have same experience as a regular plane and not be inconvenienced by it, they have succeeded.

 

I have no doubts these wagons, in my rake of wagons, will sit unnoticed, unless someone with specific knowledge of the wagon design calls it out and asks where I got it... At which point I can proudly proclaim this is a commercially available rtr 3D printed model, and I will know they will immediately be surprised.

 

Its a wagon, but it’s way more than an ordinary wagon. I’m eager to see what is the follow up. Job well done.

Edited October 31, 2019 by adb968008

[CF MRC]

Isn’t it amazing where technology is taking us?  The wagon body looks very well indeed, but with the cruel enlargements the brake laver and roof ends show the limitations of the printing technology.  Easily solved with a few strokes of a file or an after market etch.

 

Tim

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, CF MRC said:

Isn’t it amazing where technology is taking us?  The wagon body looks very well indeed, but with the cruel enlargements the brake laver and roof ends show the limitations of the printing technology.  Easily solved with a few strokes of a file or an after market etch.

 

Tim

Eh ?

have you seen how thin the wagon “horse hooks” are... almost as thin as my hair.. if the brake levers too fat, its not because of the printing.

[Edwardian]

All processes have their pros and cons. Designers of injection-moulded products have to contend with mould lines and evidence of sprue attachments.

 

With 3D-print there are equivalent factors.

 

For instance, in some areas there can be a need for supports, and witness marks are left when trimmed.  We managed to avoid supports and witness marks on visible surfaces. 

 

Another issue is that some surfaces will have a slight printing pattern.  Again, by careful adjustment of the printing angle, this can be largely avoided, or minimised. Tim points to two of the few areas where his can be discerned, at least when viewing the product at some magnification.

 

Overall, the process can print detail that cannot be moulded; the split brake gear, the horse hook, etc. so I think we gain more by this process than we lose. 

 

[gwrrob]

The SR brown one in the flesh. It's a dwarf sat next to the Bachmann van I have.

 

[Edwardian]

3 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

The SR brown one in the flesh. It's a dwarf sat next to the Bachmann van I have.

 

 

Rob, it looks to me as if this one is not properly seated on the chassis.

 

A friction fit is relied on - I don't believe Dapol are gluing - so a little firm pressure at each end should do the trick and you should feel it go home.