Rails announce SECR box van in OO

[Nile]

31 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

Then people can order using the cheapest material Shapeways offer .....

No Phil, they can only order in materials the shop owner has enabled.

 

There would be little point putting this design on Shapeways for most people, as their factory is in the EU.

[Phil Parker]

23 minutes ago, Nile said:

No Phil, they can only order in materials the shop owner has enabled.

 

There would be little point putting this design on Shapeways for most people, as their factory is in the EU.

 

Even better. The people will order the cheapest option enabled - and grumble that the even cheaper and poorer options aren't available.

 

My point is, Rails have worked out how to get the best from this design, and based those decisions on the manufacturer used, and those options aren't likely to be on the Shapeways list. There's quite a lot of 3D printing that isn't Shapeways.

[JSpencer]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Then people can order using the cheapest material Shapeways offer and complain it's not as good as the RTR model, but unpainted and more expensive. The process used to make these things is quite sophisticated and Rails have worked out the most economic run. Get the numbers right and no expensive resin is wasted 

 

The alternatives are nothing or paying a fortune on flea-bay. My first choice is of course for further runs but if not, there may be ways for people to order the 3D parts elsewhere even if they are not up to the same RTR standards and cost more. Otherwise its a case of someone else doing CADS and putting them orderable from a 3D printing company - which is bound to happen once the price of these things rocket on the S/H market.

Edited February 27, 2021 by JSpencer

[wainwright1]

It is good to know what is going on and get an idea of the time scales. I believe that the two early Wainwright liveried versions sold out quite quickly (before I could order), so hopefully some extra provision has been allowed for them.  I would definitely like a couple for my Hawkhurst SE & CR exhibition layout.

 

All the best

Ray

[JSpencer]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Why on earth would Rails do that?

 

Rails are a Business not a Charity doling out freebies - they have put a lot of effort into researching / designing the wagons and that needs to be recouped.

 

Once said costs have been recouped and the appropriate contributions to the companys profits been made then any further monies generated can be reinvested in the production of further items.

 

It would not be a freebie (I quoted Shapeways as one, but there are probably plenty they could choose from). If the resources are not there for a rerun then the next best thing is something like a kit. Here we are frustrating almost every SECR modeler whose alternatives are a very odd/hard to find white metal kit, scratch building or - not in rails interests - doing their own CADs and printing themselves. I am suggesting ways for Rails to get more out of their CADs before someone else nips in with an alternative.

 

As an SECR modeler, I cannot run a Cambrian SECR kit with Wainwright livery locos as all locos had turned into grey when they appeared. There are then a few LCDR kits which would fit very early days while most SER kits are of types largely being withdrawn when the SECR appeared.

There is a K's whitemetal kit of this van, very old, not very common. 

All other RTR wagons in SECR colours are miles out. Perhaps not far from the Cambrian types (therefore too late) or using completely wrong brake gear. 

 

I know the kit option would be more expensive than a Rails rerun (that they seem to be completely incapable of doing right now) but their previous SECR van in BR or SR colours goes for more £50 on the S/H market, meaning we are not far from printing out a kit etc (I've brought a Shapeways 6 wheel brake van and bits, its not far from that price even if maybe not the same quality as Rails product). Van kits are also among the simplest model kits to make and paint too (a hundred times easier than building and painting a birdcage coach!).

[Edwardian]

4 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Then people can order using the cheapest material Shapeways offer and complain it's not as good as the RTR model, but unpainted and more expensive. The process used to make these things is quite sophisticated and Rails have worked out the most economic run. Get the numbers right and no expensive resin is wasted 

 

Thanks, Phil. Yes, it's a combination of the resin volume used and the printing time the resin permits. It has to optimal, or the pricing becomes unsustainable.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

 

 If the resources are not there for a rerun then the next best thing is something like a kit.

 

 

IIRC the issue is simply that the the people who can produce 3D printed wagons have actually been busy producing PPE!

 

In the middle of a pandemic I know which is more important for society - and SECR wagons are most certainly not it!

 

When things have returned to normal and the manufacturing capacity exists then I'm sure Rails will consider producing more - if there is as much demand as you suggest then its most certainly something they will want to cater for by selling complete models rather than going down the Shapeways route.

[JSpencer]

8 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

IIRC the issue is simply that the the people who can produce 3D printed wagons have actually been busy producing PPE!

 

In the middle of a pandemic I know which is more important for society - and SECR wagons are most certainly not it!

 

When things have returned to normal and the manufacturing capacity exists then I'm sure Rails will consider producing more - if there is as much demand as you suggest then its most certainly something they will want to cater for by selling complete models rather than going down the Shapeways route.

 

My statements was never about PPE vs a wagon. Please don't distort as such.  

But about how I would love Rails to do further runs and if its proving to be somewhat impossible (there are hints of other limits here not related to COVID) then to consider offering us a means to order the bits through whatever 3D printing company (the wheels are Gibsons which we can order elsewhere, there exist paint, transfers and couplings too).

But the way this is being steared, I get the impression it would have been far better if we were to stop creating market demand and stop wanting to spend money in this hobby! I was hoping to see others encourage Rails to produce more and to suggest possible alternatives if it's not.  

[Matt35027]

I'm glad this thread has popped up again as I've recently noticed that the roof of my first-run SR livery van has developed this crazing and cracking in the paint. Anybody else had this? No big deal as it can easily be rubbed down and painted again, but thought I'd flag it up @Oliver Rails

[phil-b259]

35 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

My statements was never about PPE vs a wagon. Please don't distort as such.  

But about how I would love Rails to do further runs and if its proving to be somewhat impossible (there are hints of other limits here not related to COVID) then to consider offering us a means to order the bits through whatever 3D printing company (the wheels are Gibsons which we can order elsewhere, there exist paint, transfers and couplings too).

But the way this is being steared, I get the impression it would have been far better if we were to stop creating market demand and stop wanting to spend money in this hobby! I was hoping to see others encourage Rails to produce more and to suggest possible alternatives if it's not.  

 

The point is Rails themselves have been crystal clear about this - the reason the previously announced wagons have not arrived yet is due to all the manufacturing slots taken up by PPE manufacture.

 

It thus follows that Rails are not in a position to start ordering more till the current batch (which has needed to come from a new supplier) has been delivered.

 

Its also logical that as the wagons are a Rails design, they will obtain maximum return / profit from selling them via their own reatil channels and not diluting the returns by letting others use their intellectual property.

 

This is not a conspiracy - its how business works. Would you be asking Hornby or Bachmann to be releasing their designs* on Shapeways? I doubt it

 

Whinging (and yes thats how it comes across) that you cannot get your hands on wagons (either direct from rails or in kit form via Shapeways) display an impatience that is totally out of place with the situation the UK finds itself in at present.

 

Yes, we get that you missed out and are keen to obtain models of genuine SECR rolling stock - that is understandable, but these are most definitely not 'normal' times and consequently such desires need to be moderated by the times in which we live before you start going round complaining.

 

When things have stabilised further, lets say 6 months time, Rails may well be in the position to commission a further batch, I'm sure they know that the demand is there.

 

 

* Yes I know Hornby and Bachmann don't use 3D printing yet - but its entirely possible they may do in future.

 

Edited February 27, 2021 by phil-b259

[Edwardian]

A few points on the recent interesting discussion, if I may:

 

- The product is designed to take maximum advantages of the virtues of the DLS process and special resin. You could not expect it to print successfully with other 3D-print tech. 

- Whether there would be a market for selling them unfinished is hard to gauge, especially since a major part of the cost of the RTR product is the printing, in contrast, say, to an undecorated injection-moulded product where the tooling cost has been ammortised. 

- It is always possible to have a re-run, but, again, Rails would need to be satisfied that demand was sufficient to warrant a whole run. One of the beauties of this process, however, is that physical variations, not just livery variants, can be the subject of new runs.

 

Thus, while I wouldn't despair of a re-run of any particular model, there is no guarantee that any particular variant/livery combination would be repeated exactly as previously released. Early ordering is recommended!

 

 

 

 

[JSpencer]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

A few points on the recent interesting discussion, if I may:

 

- The product is designed to take maximum advantages of the virtues of the DLS process and special resin. You could not expect it to print successfully with other 3D-print tech. 

- Whether there would be a market for selling them unfinished is hard to gauge, especially since a major part of the cost of the RTR product is the printing, in contrast, say, to an undecorated injection-moulded product where the tooling cost has been ammortised. 

- It is always possible to have a re-run, but, again, Rails would need to be satisfied that demand was sufficient to warrant a whole run. One of the beauties of this process, however, is that physical variations, not just livery variants, can be the subject of new runs.

 

Thus, while I wouldn't despair of a re-run of any particular model, there is no guarantee that any particular variant/livery combination would be repeated exactly as previously released. Early ordering is recommended!

 

 

 

 

 

Early ordering was nigh on impossible in this case. The book closed in 48 hours, before most people even heard about them. I just managed to get one in 5. There cannot be doubts on Market demand for this van. E-bay speculators are going to have a field day.

I'd even buy them unfinished at £10 more than the price for decorated ones where proposed at (and maybe higher). They are a simple livery to paint. Transfers exist (or easy to do). It's not like a Birdcage with loads of windows and tonnes of lining needing skills of Coachman to do it correctly. It seems that the voice of few people saying "cannot model, won't model" is taken as the market voice. But they are one voice out of many.

I know some say unpainted wagons don't sell but then those wagons have been done in every possible livery they carried and many fictive ones they never carried and the market is flooded with those wagons. It's not the same with this van where alternatives are high auction site prices or the old K's kit or nothing. 

There is a guy selling painted Dapol wagons in SECR colours that I will never buy as they are simply wrong. However I did buy all the kits of the few LCDR and SER types (and the Cabrian kits that are generally too late).

[Compound2632]

35 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

There cannot be doubts on Market demand for this van.

 

... which continues to be a mystery to me. Few in number, limited in sphere of operation.

[Andy Hayter]

But a pretty green engine to run with them.

[phil-b259]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

... which continues to be a mystery to me. Few in number, limited in sphere of operation.

 

But LOTS of SECR liveried engines to haul them!

[No Decorum]

There were, if I remember correctly, about 126 independent railway companies at grouping. It makes sense to me to concentrate on a few of them, so that a representative stud can be built up. That indeed seems to be what is going on and, as noted above, the SECR is one of the lucky ones. That said, there isn’t an awful lot for the pretty locos to haul. These vans fill a big gap.

[Edwardian]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

... which continues to be a mystery to me. Few in number, limited in sphere of operation.

 

OK, OK, so if one were restricted to just one wagon prototype in trying to populate any pre-Grouping layout, it would be the MR D299!

 

However, the SE&CR D1424 fulfilled the brief for a covered wagon that was SE&CR, with the maximum lifespan possible so as to fit with Wainwright through to BR periods.  

 

Class/diagram numbers are not that relevant, I suggest.  Few are minded to model only the most commonly occurring equipment, or to ensure that less common items are balanced by the 'correct' proportion of ubiquitous types. If the wagon is appropriate to the scene modelled, and the SE&CR has become accessible to and popular with the RTR consumer, it does not matter that some other company built a lot more of some other thing.

 

From the Midland perspective, it is easy to overlook the fact that the Southern companies were relatively modest affairs - provincial someone here once called them - and they did not build large numbers of anything relative to the larger companies to the north and the west.  If absolute numbers were a bar to popularity, we would not have popular support for models of, say, the Brighton Terriers (50 strong), or SE&CR Ds (51) or the SE&CR P (a tiny class of not particularly successful locomotives that had rather more prominent careers in preservation than in service).  

 

I am not sure what the evidence is of 'limited in sphere of operation'.  Pre-WWI pooling, most wagons would spend most of their time on home rails.  So, this SE&CR wagon has the whole of the SE&CR to roam over. Wagons are not precluded from going 'foreign', however; the SE&CR and the GWR exchanged goods services via Reading, I believe.  From WWI pooling, and continued under 'common user' arrangements and Nationalisation, any general merchandise wagon could end up anywhere; I think the van that served the general freight needs of the Cumbrian private mineral railway, the Brampton, was Great Western!  Some of the survivors of these SE&CR vans, probably from the late '30s and into Nationalisation, were dedicated to paper traffic, but otherwise, no, they were no more 'limited in sphere of operation' than most vehicles of their type and vintage.

 

So, it's a legitimate choice for a wide range of layouts/modellers. Add to that the undoubted attraction of the novel, and you have an explanation for why the metal-door version has proved among the most popular, despite the fact that it represents one of just two vehicles so fitted (for an uncertain period). 

[Compound2632]

56 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

OK, OK,

 

Sorry, unmerciful teasing I know. Yes, the pre-Grouping southern companies had fewer wagons than Litchurch Lane could churn out in an afternoon but given their popularity with the RTR locomotive manufacturers, it's only reasonable that there should be RTR wagons and now carriages to suit. There are all sorts of reasons why the southern companies are popular choices for the RTR manufacturers, of which charm is not the least. A significant one though is the survival of their locomotives into the 1950s and 60s, which was a consequence of the Southern Railway's decision to put its money into extending electrification. (A similar line of argument holds for the LNER consituents, though there the problem was lack of money altogether.) The great northern companies (small capitals - I mean LNWR and MR), which in fact dominate the pre-grouping kit- and scratch-building scene, fall at that post-nationalisation hurdle, the majority of their locomotives having been either withdrawn (LNWR) or rebuilt in late-grouping / early LMS days (MR). (We may be starting to see the tide turn on this with Rails' Improved Precedent.) Few items of pre-grouping rolling stock were sufficiently long-lived to reach those critical 1950s. I fully understand, and we have discussed before, the logic for the particular choice of this vehicle. They were by no means the most numerous design of SER/SECR van but had a handful of long-lived examples. My comment on limited sphere of operation was really a swipe at the popularity of the model in BR livery, since my understanding is that the five post-war survivors were on a dedicated circuit serving a paper mill in Kent. 

 

Of course such vehicles would occasionally been consigned to foreign destinations, even in pre-pooling days. Here's a photo of a precursor design at the NER's Forth Bank Goods Station, Newcastle, in 1894. (If Rails had done an earlier diagram such as that, I would have bought several, having a specific use for them - a Huntley & Palmers project.)

 

Now I'm a hair-shirt puritanical apostle of the ordinary; accurate modelling of the bygone scene should preferentially represent the probable rather than the possible. However I recognise that a great many model railway enthusiasts are unfailingly seduced by the rare and unusual, as the success of the various models you list bears out, and no manufacturer is to be blamed for making money out of human weakness. 

 

As I have said before - let's say strongly hinted - a good example of a more numerous vehicle that fulfills the same set of requirements as this SECR van is the Midland 16'6" 8/10 ton van to D362/D363, over 6,000 built 1893-1916 and some still in traffic in the 1950s, even being repainted into BR grey livery, and some preserved survivors. That 6,000 is still a drop in the ocean as far as Midland wagons are concerned - about 5% of the total fleet - but there was one for every two SECR wagons of all types. From the pre-pooling perspective, the flow of foreign wagons was rather one-sided as far as the southern companies were concerned, with northern wagons bringing coal, Burton beer, and manufactured goods to the benighted south and returning empty. The areas served by the southern companies did not by-and-large generate anything that was lacking in the north. (There are of course exceptions, such as traffic from Southampton Docks.)

 

Of course I'm also a hypocrite, as all good puritans are. I'm just finishing off a Midland wagon of a type which there were only 101 built - a D370 refrigerator meat van. But, so long as I build a couple more meat vans (of different diagrams of course), I can justify them in my passing express goods train.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

They were by no means the most numerous design of SER/SECR van but had a handful of long-lived examples. My comment on limited sphere of operation was really a swipe at the popularity of the model in BR livery, since my understanding is that the five post-war survivors were on a dedicated circuit serving a paper mill in Kent. 

 

Not sure we know that all the survivors were dedicated to that traffic.  One was pictured in faded SR livery in 1949 in departmental use. 

 

The reality is that many of the SE&CR locomotives produced RTR had longer lives than much rolling stock, so finding a protoype van that stretched the whole period is challenging!

 

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Of course I'm also a hypocrite, as all good puritans are. I'm just finishing off a Midland wagon of a type which there were only 101 built - a D370 refrigerator meat van. But, so long as I build a couple more meat vans (of different diagrams of course), I can justify them in my passing express goods train.

 

 

Have you lost your senses, man! That's nine fewer than the SE&CR D1424s!

 

The Midland equivalent of rocking horse manure in terms of rarity value!

 

 

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

The Midland equivalent of rocking horse manure in terms of rarity value!

 

The Midland had wagons for that, too. D343 - slightly more numerous than my meat van, 102 built.

[Edwardian]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The Midland had wagons for that, too. D343 - slightly more numerous than my meat van, 102 built.

 

Yes, but just think how many D299s you'd have to build before you could justify clearing up after a horse.

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Yes, but just think how many D299s you'd have to build before you could justify clearing up after a horse.

 The way to look at it is: I can justify having a rake of around 10 - 20 of the manure wagons if I'm modelling a particular set of sidings in Nottingham*, the location where the night soil was consigned, or the route in between. What I can't have is a random one at some random location. 

 

*Or one of the three other Midland cities where the Midland had a contract for this traffic - I haven't yet found out which they were, so there is a bit of elbow room for Rule 1. 

[Edwardian]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 What I can't have is a random one at some random location. 

 

 

Unlike a D299 in, say, Kent

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Unlike a D299 in, say, Kent

 

Loaded with coal or barrels of Burton beer, returning empty or with empty Burton beer barrels. Perhaps one a fortnight at a small wayside station. You can have LNWR and/or GNR opens on the same grounds, but about half as often. Not random - justified.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Compound2632

[billbedford]

I think that the SECR van has proved the is a market for relatively small batches of RTR pre-grouping wagons. Now Rails Has to prove that this one isn't a fluke and go on to produce a range of similar vehicles from other companies. Lets just see what the market is for say a GNSR or G&SWR van or anything from a S Wales railway.