Loose SECR birdcages in Southern days?

[jamespetts]

I have heard/read from some sources that the SECR birdcage carriages (as modelled by Bachmann and used on former LBSCR as well as former SECR lines after grouping) were only ever run in sets of three; yet some photographs that I have found, such as this example from the Mike Morant collection (being the only one that I can find at present) seem to show them running other than in a set of three.

 

Does anyone know any more about this?

[Andy Hayter]

I don't think that is the Bachmann birdcage.  Just because it is a birdcage does not mean it is the version made by Bachmann.

[jamespetts]

2 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

I don't think that is the Bachmann birdcage.  Just because it is a birdcage does not mean it is the version made by Bachmann.

 

I did wonder about that - but what others were there that match the appearance in the photograph, do you or does anyone else know?

[Andy Hayter]

I cannot claim to be an expert, but the SECR built several types of coach that had birdcage brake ends.  The Bachmann set is I think the 60ft version, which were built to replace the 50ft versions and I think there may have been others as well.  My guess is that your picture is a 50footer.

[jamespetts]

3 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

I cannot claim to be an expert, but the SECR built several types of coach that had birdcage brake ends.  The Bachmann set is I think the 60ft version, which were built to replace the 50ft versions and I think there may have been others as well.  My guess is that your picture is a 50footer.

 

Interesting - thank you. I note that Roxey Mouldings do not seem to produce kits of these earlier carriages.

[Andy Hayter]

Worsley Works seem to imply that there were birdcage brakes in 46ft, 50t and 54ft.

 

http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/4mm/4mm_Southern_Pregroup_SECR.htm

 

 

 

[jamespetts]

2 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

Worsley Works seem to imply that there were birdcage brakes in 46ft, 50t and 54ft.

 

http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/4mm/4mm_Southern_Pregroup_SECR.htm

 

 

 

That is interesting - thank you. Are those kits just body kits, or do they include underframe and roof?

[pete_mcfarlane]

It's a 50'1" long brake third - there are several similar diagram, some 5 compartment and some with 4 compartments and a lavatory (which I think is what we're looking at). It's probably formed in a 6 coach set. 

[jamespetts]

Just now, pete_mcfarlane said:

It's a 50'1" long brake third - there are several similar diagram, some 5 compartment and some with 4 compartments and a lavatory (which I think is what we're looking at). It's probably formed in a 6 coach set. 

 

Interesting - thank you.

[Nick Holliday]

 

7 hours ago, jamespetts said:

 

Interesting - thank you. I note that Roxey Mouldings do not seem to produce kits of these earlier carriages.

On the contrary, Roxey produce a 50 foot birdcage composite from 1907 that was intended for through services, and not part of sets.

https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/140/4c35-secr-50ft-brake-composite/

Also Mallard/Blacksmith did an earlier three coach birdcage set, just for the record - I won't mention the C-word.

[Guy Rixon]

Almost every brake coach built by the SER had a birdcage, and essentially all those built by the SECR under Mr. Wainwright. Even the the slip coaches had birdcages. Most trains had a coach with a birdcage at each end, although the principal expresses often had birdcage full-brakes with four or six wheels.

 

In SECR days, the coaches were mainly grouped in sets rather than loose, but the sets could be of any length; and the sets were changed frequently, possibly being rearranged to match the seasonal traffic. There was a distinction between "fixed" trains that kept their formation from day to day (but a train booked to divide would contain more than one such set) and "set" trains, such as the close-coupled stock for central London, which were never remarshalled and went through works as a unit. The thing about the Trio sets was that they were more stable than the other formations, possibly being counted as set trains.

 

IIUC, Worsley Works never sell complete kits with castings, but only the etched parts, and it varies from kit to kit as to whether you get a a "floor" (presumably including headstocks and solebars) and a roof. On their site, from memory, the 3-set with lengths 50'1"/54'1"/50''1" is a Trio-A set and was the earliest of the trio types. Three 54' coaches is, IIRC, is  Trio-B and 3 at 60', per Bachmann is a Trio-C, introduced in 1911.

[Compound2632]

One should also consider the context: the OP's photo is said to show a bank holiday excursion in 1938 - by which date the carriage is 30 years old at least; is this a case of any old stock that can be found at the back of the carriage sidings being scraped into use, or is it a fixed weekday set diverted from its usual duties? I don't have any of the excellent books on SECR carriages but would carriages operated as sets in SECR days still be used in that way in the late 30s?

[Guy Rixon]

See another RMweb thread concerning Trio sets: "Trio A sets were built in 1909, comprising a 50' 1" composite brake, a 54' 1" composite lavatory and a 50' 1" composite brake lavatory. Sets were broken up from the late 1930s and coaches were mostly withdrawn or converted to departmental stock early 1950s.

 

Trio C sets were Composite Brake Lavatory, Composite Lavatory, Third Brake all 60' 1". Introduced 1912, sets were broken up from the late 1940s (mainly to create pull-push sets) with the last set withdrawn in 1959." -- Bill Bishop quoting David Gould.

[jamespetts]

Thank you all for your replies: this is all very helpful.

[pete_mcfarlane]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

One should also consider the context: the OP's photo is said to show a bank holiday excursion in 1938 - by which date the carriage is 30 years old at least; is this a case of any old stock that can be found at the back of the carriage sidings being scraped into use, or is it a fixed weekday set diverted from its usual duties? 

I think the sets kept for special traffic were longer than the 6 coach set in the photo - around  9/10 coaches. Here's an example of a 14 coach 6 wheel set from a slightly earlier period. https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/SECR-tender-engines/i-HjNtgZ7/A