Pre-1948 liveries in the latter 50s?

[Alex TM]

Hi everyone,

 

I've recently purchased some photo books showing the railways as they were from 1948 through 1955.  They're absolutely fascinating as much as for the incidental detail as for the main subjects.  One thing that struck me was the apparent absence of images showing stock in either 'big-four' or private owner liveries (even allowing for monochrome images, and often filthy wagons).  I realise that repainting wagons would not have been a priority but could anyone tell me when pre-British Railways liveries would eventually have died out?

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[The Johnster]

As a very general guide for locos, repaints took place after ‘heavy general’ overhauls at main workshops,  which were when the boiler certificate ran out and that had to be fully overhauled.  Boiler certificates were for 5 year periods but a 2 year extension could be (and always was) applied for subject to a 

Board of Trade inspector’s endorsement following a successful hydraulic pressure test.  So, based on this and allowing for the time the actual overhaul took, and excepting any time that the loco was out of service in storage, the last locos painted in company liveries in late 1947 would have been repainted into  a BR livery by the spring of 1956. 

 

But there are photos of locos in big 4 liveries in the early 60s; these may be either locos that have spent time-out of service (in which case a suspension of the boiler ticket can be applied for), or older livery showing through badly warn or faded BR livery.  

 

Coaches, including NPCCS, seem even to have lasted about the same time in previous liveries, but stock for prestige services was painted more often.  Goods vehicles could be in service without painting for much longer, but during the 1948-60 period a very major production of new vans and wagons, initially to big 4 designs but increasingly to the BR standard designs from 1950 onwards concurrent with withdrawal of huge numbers of older vehicles at a time that traffic was falling sped the elimination of wagons in big 4 liveries by about 1960.  Wooden bodied xpo minerals were rare by then and gone from all but industrial use by about ‘63.  By the mid 50s very few had not been repainted into BR grey or withdrawn. 

 

This is is a very general overview of the situation; individual exceptions could certainly be found and this is very much a ‘rough guide’!

 

Photographers tended understandably to concentrate on newly painted stock because that looks smarter and shows detail better in the photo, which may explain the lack of big 4 liveries in your photo books. 

[jim.snowdon]

I was always under the impression that boiler certificates for steam locomotives were a product of the preservation era, when boilers were being maintained by (technically) amateurs and insured on an individual basis. Under BR and its predecessors, boilers were the responsibility of a whole body of examiners employed by the railways and overhaul intervals determined by a mixture of experience and practical examination.

 

As a principle, though, the pre-grouping liveries disappeared on most stock over the first few years of BR as stock went through works for overhaul and I would doubt that there was much remaining by the early-middle 1950s, at least as far as locomotives and coaching stock were concerned. Goods stock would have taken longer, as wagons weren't overhauled in quite the same way as locomotives. Woden bodies ex-PO wagons didn't exactly disappear overnight, although the concerted building of steel 16 tonners would have seen off a lot of the pre-1923 spec wagons first, and those that remained were not generally on the list for repainting at all, other than quite late on in the 50s, when, as Paul B. might already have observed, officialdom did react to comments about the serioiusly tatty apprearance of much of the stock.

 

Photographer are, on the whole, a funny bunch, in as much as they have a tendency to concentrate on the locomotive, to the exclusion of much of the train behind, particularly freight vehicles. Try finding photographs of goods brake vans. Fortunately, there were a very few who were dedicated to the train, rather the locomotive, and we have a lot to thank them for.

 

Jim

[Chris M]

The front cover of Modern locomotives Illustrated issue 219 has a colour photo of a D600 with a mixture of coaches. The second coach is still in GWR livery and looking to be in good order despite being 11 years after nationalisation. The train is likely to be the 8:15 SO Perranporth to Paddington.

 

https://modernlocomotives.keypublishing.com/the-magazine/view-issue/?issueID=6856

Edited April 23, 2019 by Chris M

[MPR]

42 minutes ago, Chris M said:

The front cover of Modern locomotives Illustrated issue 219 has a colour photo of a D600 with a mixture of coaches. The second coach is still in GWR livery and looking to be in good order despite being 11 years after nationalisation. The train is likely to be the 8:15 SO Perranporth to Paddington.

 

https://modernlocomotives.keypublishing.com/the-magazine/view-issue/?issueID=6856

Not so sure that this correct - Mk1 based restaurant coaches had not been delivered when chocolate and cream was reintroduced for certain named trains and accordingly some earlier coaches were repainted in BR chocolate and cream.

[Chris M]

That explains it then. I couldn't see how the paintwork could be so good after 11 years in service. This must be the exception to the often made statement that only mk1 coaches were painted into chocolate & cream in BR days. Just goes to show how photos and some sources of livery information can lead to false conclusions.

[keefer]

BR choc/cream on the mk1 coaches came in with the 1956 livery change. As noted above by MPR it was supposed to be for named expresses only, with normal main-line stock being maroon. Parkin states 3 sets initially, for the Bristolian, Cornish Riviera Ltd. and Torbay Express, but the WR was pushing for more with at least 8 new 'named' trains proposed. It also says it limited its use to 'sufficient stock to cover the majority of main line named trains and a pool of spares for strengthening where needed', due to the difficulty in keeping the new livery clean.

The preference for pre-nationalistion catering vehicles was partly down to the unpopularity of the 1951 anthracite-fuelled mk1 vehicles. The 3 new propane-fuelled prototypes appeared in 1956 with the production series appearing from 1957,  but it would take time for enough of these to be available for all services.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by keefer

[Steamport Southport]

Very rare. Seems to have been a GWR thing. Never seen any other railway company locomotives in pre 1948 livery significantly after nationalization.

 

I've found a few GWR panniers and others that escaped a repaint. But they were all ones that were in the sticks such as Caerphilly or repaired at places like Old Oak Common. For example a couple of the 97xx panniers lasted until at least the 1960s wearing GWR livery.

 

Undated photo but it's been discussed on this forum before.

 

http://www.railuk.info/gallery/notes/getimage.php?id=554

 

Also this at Swindon presumably for scrapping.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/93456400@N04/14347146613

 

 

 

Jason

[jim.snowdon]

The GWR appeared to have had the quaint idea that Nationalisation never happened....

 

Jim

[adb968008]

2 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

The GWR appeared to have had the quaint idea that Nationalisation never happened....

 

Jim

Au contraire, with the adoption of GW green to the wider BR steam (and diesel fleet), the GWR assumed they had just acquired all the other rail companies and became British Railways.

[Dunsignalling]

57 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Au contraire, with the adoption of GW green to the wider BR steam (and diesel fleet), the GWR assumed they had just acquired all the other rail companies and became British Railways.

In terms of policy and practice getting adopted across the board, the LMS probably had a better claim to having effectively "acquired" the rest.

 

Painting all 8P locos red would have been too blatant, though, and green (of one hue or another) was used on locomotives by all the others. I also remember reading somewhere that the "official" shade used by the GWR changed three times between 1923 and 1948. 

 

Of the three company greens extant in 1947, SR Malachite and LNER Apple were both rather "leery" to the eyes of others so the sober GWR shade should have been the least controversial choice.

 

John

 

Edit: I've seen photos dated as late as 1959 of a number of ex-LMS NPCCS vehicles still in full livery with just "M" prefixes added to the numbers. 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Dunsignalling
Dragging myself back on topic

[corneliuslundie]

For the Southern Region see Southern Style - BR SR which has exact dates for repainting for very many of the locomotives, and gives a good idea of dates for other stock.

Published by the HMRS, see www.hmrs.org.uk

It also gives interesting explanations of the difficulties of applying the dictates of the Railway Executive (aka the LMS!) and the cost of repaining and keeping smart carriages in the two colour BR livery - hence the switch to green.

Jonathan

[adb968008]

I know regional colour bias existed in the 1980’s.

 

RES were based on BR Parcels sector, who were predominantly based in Derby and in the offices above Euston station.

 

When 47522 emerged with Parcels wording in Doncaster LNER Green, opinions were quickly expressed, and ensured the word “Parcels” branding was quick to disappear, the livery now attributed as a “celebrity” instead. 

Similarly as “Doncaster” had now got its own celebrity then the MR expressed desire not to be out done 97561/47973 followed... of course the GW was already years ahead with 47079/484/500/628 and 50007, though they weren't “sectorised”...

 

coming back to 47522.. it was no coincidence under parcels sector that first chance to off the Green was taken, in early 1990 after a collision it became one of the first into the Red Parcels livery.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by adb968008

[The Johnster]

I can confirm that refurbished Collett Restaurant cars were used with choc/cream BR (W) liveried mk1s on the 'Red Dragon' up to about 1959, with both lined maroon and choc/cream examples.  The 'Red Dragon' had a mk1 Restaurant Car in BR (W) choc/cream until the choc/cream sets were broken up, 1962 I think.  

 

The Colletts are apparent in photos because the roof line does not match the mk1s or the carmine/cream Hawksworths previously used, and they have visible truss rods unlike the single central truss of the mk1s.  Hawkworth slip composites were also painted in BR (W) 1956 choc/cream to run with named expresses.  I have seen a photo of a King leaving the carriage sidings at Weston Super Mare with a brand new rake of BR (W) choc/cream mk1s, including restaurant car, all on what must have been brand new B4 bogies dated 1962.  

 

Everything is all the same except when it's different...

[keefer]

According to Parkin the pre-production B4 bogies first appeared in 1962 on the Bristolian and Red Dragon sets.

By 1963 it was clear the wear rates, even after 150,000 miles, were minimal compared to the BR standard bogies and so the B4 was chosen as the new standard. Commonwealth bogies also rode very well but had a significant cost and weight (1.5 tons per bogie) penalty.

Edited April 23, 2019 by keefer
To correct figures

[Oldddudders]

4 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

The GWR appeared to have had the quaint idea that Nationalisation never happened....

 

Jim

Just as it had sailed through Grouping. My skool history textbook actually included a 1923 cartoon showing a GWR chap saying "Never even blew my hat off!" 

[Alex TM]

Hi everyone,

 

Thanks for all those very helpful, and interesting, responses.  The comments about photographing the new, etc, does make sense to me though I hadn't thought of it.  The comments in respect of boiler certificates is also very interesting.  As for the GWR, I'll keep out of that one (it may be safer to discuss Brexit)!

 

I've learned a lot from this.

 

Again, thanks.

 

Alex.

[Michael Edge]

18 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Very rare. Seems to have been a GWR thing. Never seen any other railway company locomotives in pre 1948 livery significantly after nationalization.

 

I've found a few GWR panniers and others that escaped a repaint. But they were all ones that were in the sticks such as Caerphilly or repaired at places like Old Oak Common. For example a couple of the 97xx panniers lasted until at least the 1960s wearing GWR livery.

 

Undated photo but it's been discussed on this forum before.

 

http://www.railuk.info/gallery/notes/getimage.php?id=554

 

Also this at Swindon presumably for scrapping.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/93456400@N04/14347146613

 

 

 

Jason

Some of these apparent pre-nationalisation livery survivals may not be quite what they seem. I remember seeing SR S15s in Dai Woodham's yard with all their previous liveries gradually showing through the paint as they weathered away, both BR crests and at least two variations on Southern were visible. Many lesser locos were never properly repainted and if the old GWR and the like started to appear enthusiasts (or someone) would enhance them with chalk. I do recall some of the LMS Jackshaft 0-6-0DEs still running in the early 1960s with LMS still faintly visible under the dirt.

[Steamport Southport]

9 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Some of these apparent pre-nationalisation livery survivals may not be quite what they seem. I remember seeing SR S15s in Dai Woodham's yard with all their previous liveries gradually showing through the paint as they weathered away, both BR crests and at least two variations on Southern were visible. Many lesser locos were never properly repainted and if the old GWR and the like started to appear enthusiasts (or someone) would enhance them with chalk. I do recall some of the LMS Jackshaft 0-6-0DEs still running in the early 1960s with LMS still faintly visible under the dirt.

 

I agree with that. When GWR 5193 was at Southport you could see about four different liveries under the rusting paint of the side tanks. Even going back to GREAT WESTERN livery.

 

But I believe the Old Oak Common 97XXs were genuine survivors. At least one of them was still green.

 

 

Jason

Edited April 24, 2019 by Steamport Southport

[Steamport Southport]

22 hours ago, Alex TM said:

Hi everyone,

 

Thanks for all those very helpful, and interesting, responses.  The comments about photographing the new, etc, does make sense to me though I hadn't thought of it.  The comments in respect of boiler certificates is also very interesting.  As for the GWR, I'll keep out of that one (it may be safer to discuss Brexit)!

 

I've learned a lot from this.

 

Again, thanks.

 

Alex.

 

It does normally help if everyone keeps on topic.

 

Have you got this book? Ignore the title, a few of the photographs are post 1948. But it shows you the reality of the railways at the time.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Big-Four-Colour-1935-50/dp/0906899621

 

 

Jason

[eastglosmog]

Neil Parhouse's British Railway History in Colour, Vol 3, Gloucester Midland Lines Part 1 North has several pictures of 57xx Pannier tank 7768 at Upton with GWR clearly visible on the tanks as late as 1961.  Appears to be black livery, but so grimy not entirely sure!.

[Alex TM]

Hi again,

 

First, thanks for the book reference Jason.

 

As for layers of liveries and paint I remember seeing something like this on a class 33 at Reading around 1984/85; beneath the blue paint could clearly be seen the pre-TOPs number.

 

As for a GWR pannier appearing to be black, weren't some painted like that during WW2?

 

Again, many thanks for the responses.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[eastglosmog]

Yes Alex, during 1942 - 1945 most GWR repaints were in black,  see the wonderful gwr.org website http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1942.html for more information.

Makes one assume this loco did not get a repaint for 16 years!

[Chuffed 1]

Regarding GWR repaints (or lack of them), I can remember seeing a Hall (I think) at Swindon in 1963 with GW on the tender and of course there was the mogul with GWR on the tender, that bequeathed it to a Manor (Frilford?)in about 1962.
 

In Southern Vans & Coaches In Colour by Mike King, Plate 125 shows a Bulleid 2 set being shunted at Bodmin General and in the background there’s a B set still in choc and cream in July 1958!  And regarding the Southern, I’ve read that an estimated 10% of coaching stock never carried crimson or blood and custard, going straight from malachite to BR green.

 

There was a surprising degree of antipathy to BR corporate branding from ordinary railwaymen for years after nationalisation. Banbury station was still using GWR luggage labels as makeshift signage as late as 1972!
 

[Dunsignalling]

Regarding Southern coaches, painting practice for coaches involved regular retouching and revarnishing with scheduled repaints at ten year intervals in most cases. As elsewhere, the most prestigious services presented the latest livery of the day fairly quickly, but not usually through repainting. On the SR, new BR-built Bulleids in crimson/cream diverted their slightly-older brethren to semi-fasts etc. rather than to the paint-shop. 

 

Thus, post-war Bulleid stock, and anything else repainted into malachite before the application of BR liveries commenced, should not have been due a scheduled repaint before 1956, by which time regional colours were authorised. The green-to-green scenario would therefore be the rule rather than the exception.

 

However, the late 40s and early 50s were times of austerity and shortages from which BR was by no means insulated. Even when crimson/cream arrived for pre-war main line stock, economy (more than any partisan feeling) dictated that crimson would not be applied to lesser vehicles until remaining stocks of malachite had been reduced to the level required for maintenance purposes.  For many older examples (e.g. most of the 1930s LSWR rebuilds as modelled by Hornby*) such repaints would prove to be their last before withdrawal.

 

It seems to have been the case that, by the end of 1959, all remaining SR coaches in revenue service were in BR green. Southern Region Mk.1s in crimson/cream remained, in dwindling numbers, up to mid-1962.    

 

John

 

 *Only around half of those would ever receive crimson and a mere handful of very late survivors, BR green.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Dunsignalling
Punctuation