automatic movement of stacked trains

[Talltim]

When using Train controller do you have fixed length blocks (hopefully longer than your longest train!) in your staging? Just thinking that some trains are a lot shorter than others so you could fit more in the same length. Is it possible to program the length of the train  so it knows how much room it takes, allowing the train behind to pull up close to the rear? The issue I see with this is if you shunt a train and it changes length you would have to update the change in the software 

[Andymsa]

6 minutes ago, Talltim said:

When using Train controller do you have fixed length blocks (hopefully longer than your longest train!) in your staging? Just thinking that some trains are a lot shorter than others so you could fit more in the same length. Is it possible to program the length of the train  so it knows how much room it takes, allowing the train behind to pull up close to the rear? The issue I see with this is if you shunt a train and it changes length you would have to update the change in the software 

 

Yes this is possible, the only draw back is that when the train draws up, it's speed is at its slowest speed which can take awhile to reach its stop position. I use short blocks and long blocks for staging and long blocks that are divided. I'm thinking of dividing my long blocks into shorter blocks this way I feel I will maximise the staging yards.

 

yes you can program the blocks specific to train length. The issue of remarshalling the train can be approached a couple of ways, but is not an issue with train length as you can create wagon/coach vehicles aswell as locos.  

[Ray H]

Chaz

 

We have something similar on our club O gauge layout. It uses LDRs, ABC braking and relays. We set up the three train om the layout at the start of operation and then trigger the movement sequence by changing a point which changes a signal to green and bypasses the Brake section to enable the train to move.

 

Fortunately, the trains all move "automatically" so we don't have need to "address" the locos. However, and this is the bit that may be relevant to you. If we do try to select one of the locos that is using the auto system the loco will stop as we hit the Enter key on our NCE throttle and then start moving again as we (re)set the throttle. W don't use anything other than NCE throttles so I can't say whether this is common to others or not but it maybe worth worth checking out.

[NIK]

2 hours ago, Ray H said:

Chaz

 

We have something similar on our club O gauge layout. It uses LDRs, ABC braking and relays. We set up the three train om the layout at the start of operation and then trigger the movement sequence by changing a point which changes a signal to green and bypasses the Brake section to enable the train to move.

 

Fortunately, the trains all move "automatically" so we don't have need to "address" the locos. However, and this is the bit that may be relevant to you. If we do try to select one of the locos that is using the auto system the loco will stop as we hit the Enter key on our NCE throttle and then start moving again as we (re)set the throttle. W don't use anything other than NCE throttles so I can't say whether this is common to others or not but it maybe worth worth checking out.

Hi,

 

You don't say what NCE system you have but on the Power Pro providing the loco you want to select is in that throttle's Recall system and Recall is used then the loco should continue I think (unless the ABC system in the Decoder confounds that). Selecting a loco and then pressing the Enter key will probably stop the loco. I haven't got my Power Pro plugged in at present so I can't confirm how the command station works.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[chaz]

Does anybody know of a good, snappy review of the z21/Z21 differences? These must be considerable  - the z21 (liberated from train sets) is a lot cheaper than the Z21. Now although the cost will not be a problem I don't want to spend a lot more for facilities that I will never use.

 

I Googled "z21/Z21" and looked at a couple of Youtube videos but I had trouble staying awake. I found myself shouting "Get on with it!" at the screen and after using the slider to fast-forward I gave in and quit. Somebody should tell these blokes not to spend so much time describing what I can see for myself by looking at the screen - please, get on with explaining what isn't obvious.

 

Any pointer to a good, concise list of the differences would be much appreciated (maybe this has been dealt with elsewhere on this forum?).

 

Chaz

 

 

 

[WIMorrison]

This website will give you all you want to know

 

https://www.z21.eu/en

 

essentially it is down to the number and tyoe of interfaces that are available and a couple of other items

[chaz]

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

This website will give you all you want to know

 

https://www.z21.eu/en

 

essentially it is down to the number and tyoe of interfaces that are available and a couple of other items

 

Had a quick look and it seems spot on. Will look again when I have more time. Thanks.

 

Chaz

[RJS1977]

To my mind, this sounds like a job for CBUS, using a CANCMD DCC command station connected to a laptop via a CANUSB.

 

It should be possible to write a Visual Basic program to send the appropriate messages to the command station, which the command station in turn can translate into DCC signals.

[chaz]

7 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

To my mind, this sounds like a job for CBUS, using a CANCMD DCC command station connected to a laptop via a CANUSB.

 

It should be possible to write a Visual Basic program to send the appropriate messages to the command station, which the command station in turn can translate into DCC signals.

 

Would I be right in thinking that this would involve a lot of work both in making hardware modules and in setting up software? Should this be the case it would rule out this as a solution - my chief focus on this project will be the models - not the control system. I will only add automation to the staging if it can be achieved without prolonging the development time unduly. I don't want to duplicate the CrossRail experience!    My fall-back position remains a human operator moving the trains.

 

Chaz

[RJS1977]

10 hours ago, chaz said:

 

Would I be right in thinking that this would involve a lot of work both in making hardware modules and in setting up software? Should this be the case it would rule out this as a solution - my chief focus on this project will be the models - not the control system. I will only add automation to the staging if it can be achieved without prolonging the development time unduly. I don't want to duplicate the CrossRail experience!    My fall-back position remains a human operator moving the trains.

 

Chaz

 

Chaz

 

I think you're probably right :-(

 

However having re-read your original post, I've realised my friend ##### has set-up on his layout that moves trains up in the way you want them to, without using a computer and only using commercially available equipment. Unfortunately I can't remember the details of it but I'll drop him an email and see what he can tell me.

 

Richard

Edited April 26, 2019 by RJS1977

[chaz]

On 26/04/2019 at 09:11, RJS1977 said:

 

Chaz

 

I think you're probably right :-(

 

However having re-read your original post, I've realised my friend xxxxxx has set-up on his layout that moves trains up in the way you want them to, without using a computer and only using commercially available equipment. Unfortunately I can't remember the details of it but I'll drop him an email and see what he can tell me.

 

Richard

 

Thanks for that Richard. It's clear that you understand my position. I have seen model railways where it was obvious that the owner's chief interest was in the control system and the models were only there to have something to control. Nothing wrong with that (our hobby is large enough to include any number of approaches) but it isn't what I want to do. 

 

I am interested in your friend xxxxxxx set-up if you can get some details, it may provide a method for me.

 

Chaz

Edited April 27, 2019 by chaz
name deleted as requested

[Ray H]

18 hours ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

You don't say what NCE system you have but on the Power Pro providing the loco you want to select is in that throttle's Recall system and Recall is used then the loco should continue I think (unless the ABC system in the Decoder confounds that). Selecting a loco and then pressing the Enter key will probably stop the loco. I haven't got my Power Pro plugged in at present so I can't confirm how the command station works.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

Nick

 

You're correct. However, the likely throttle operators - with the emphasis on the plural - that might want to take control of any of the locos are those that have been moving numerous other locos around so their recall stack is liable to have long since lost the locos assigned to the "automatic" trains. In addition the locos might have been set up (and frequently are) on one of the lesser used throttles at the time.

 

I don't know whether this would affect they way Chaz plans to operate his new layout but I thought I'd better flag up what we've found.

[chaz]

6 hours ago, Ray H said:

 

Nick

 

You're correct. However, the likely throttle operators - with the emphasis on the plural - that might want to take control of any of the locos are those that have been moving numerous other locos around so their recall stack is liable to have long since lost the locos assigned to the "automatic" trains. In addition the locos might have been set up (and frequently are) on one of the lesser used throttles at the time.

 

I don't know whether this would affect they way Chaz plans to operate his new layout but I thought I'd better flag up what we've found.

 

I ought to say that I have used the NCE throttle on a friend's layout and I'm not a fan. I am more likely to go for the z21 or a Lenz system with the new LH101 handsets. I use Multimaus handsets on my home layout and like these, so the z21 is attractive. I also use an ancient (first generation)  Lenz system that is still going strong on my 7mm O gauge layout Dock Green.

I have no need to make any decisions on DCC or automation yet as I will not start making the baseboards until the autumn,  when both space and funds will become available as I sell off Dock Green and the 7mm rolling stock. 

 

Chaz

[chaz]

It might be that the Lenz BM3 modules might offer a workable solution, providing the TCS decoders I am putting in my locos will respond to their signals. They do seem to offer a very neat (if expensive) solution.

I am awaiting a reply to my email to TCS technical support asking if the WOW chips support ABC (automatic braking control). If they don't then I think I will probably fall back on a human operator doing the job.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

On 23/04/2019 at 18:56, Gordon A said:

Ask Tim V, he has a system that works as you describe on his Clutton layout..

It does involve all the locos in a loop being given the same number and dead sections.

 

Gordon A

 

Sorry for the delay in replying to your suggestion. I think I can guess how this works but giving several locos the same address seems rather against the spirit of DCC. Also relay controlled dead sections implies sudden stops and jack-rabbit starts which I am not keen on, so this is not an appealing solution for me.

 

Chaz

[Gordon A]

5 hours ago, chaz said:

 

Sorry for the delay in replying to your suggestion. I think I can guess how this works but giving several locos the same address seems rather against the spirit of DCC. Also relay controlled dead sections implies sudden stops and jack-rabbit starts which I am not keen on, so this is not an appealing solution for me.

 

Chaz

Hi Chaz,

 

Yes you are correct about sudden stops and starts.

However the sudden stops take place at a low speed and the starts are jack rabbit variety as the top speed of the locos are limited by the chip to a realistic speed.

 

All I can say as a regular operator before Clutton's retirement is that the system works well and makes the yard operation easy.

 

Giving the loco's in a storage loop the same number makes it lot easier than getting up and trying to read the number on the loco.

 

Gordon A

[Sol]

12 minutes ago, Gordon A said:

Giving the loco's in a storage loop the same number makes it lot easier than getting up and trying to read the number on the loco.

 

Gordon A

 

 

I don't even try to read numbers in storage tracks - I rely on a paper record of what train and loco is in what storage track. A couple of my modeling mates even use magnets with loco number on them to stick to a metal plate near the control panel.

[WIMorrison]

Using Railcom makes it even easier as the loco ID can be displayed on the screen

[chaz]

Thanks to everyone of you who have offered suggestions and advice about this topic. However I had a discussion yesterday about the problem with one of my operating team (someone who's opinion I value highly) and he pointed out that any automation of the staging loop would make the layout single operator  - not a desirable outcome for us! So the movement of trains in the staging area will be done by a human. This will be a cheaper option both in money and time. I have had no reply yet to my query to TCS technical support on whether their decoders would work with Lenz BM3 devices - but it matters little now.

 

To quote Monty Python - I hope you don't feel that I have been "deliberately wasting your time".

Feel free to keep discussing the ins and outs of automation if you want to. I would be happy to see any further observations.

 

Chaz

Edited November 18, 2019 by chaz

[Al.]

On 23/04/2019 at 19:42, Nigelcliffe said:

 

c)  Relay switching of a "DCC all trains stop" signal into different sections.   Should work with any decoder, but the track isolation needed might be complex. 

 

 

 

 

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but can someone explain how this works?

 

I'm looking at options to convert Remagen to DCC, but as I have an automatic cascade/stack fiddle yard I struggling to figure out how I can make this work with DCC control.

 

 

[RJS1977]

I think in some circumstances a layout can be set up so that parts of it can be run automatically or manually depending on the number of operators available. For example, Peter Denny's 'Automatic Crispin' was designed to operate the fiddle yard of 'Buckingham' once Crispin went off to University. I am not aware whether the AC was 'switched out' during Crispin's visits home in University holidays.

 

My friend's model of Cannon Street has a long stretch of 'main line' connecting the terminus to the fiddle yard/reversing loop, on which a number of trains can be stacked. Additionally there are a number of storage loops in the fiddle yard itself. So when he is operating the layout on his own, he can run a simple timetable, sending trains out and getting the next one in the stack back. However when he has friends round, one of them operates the storage loops, increasing the variety of trains still further.

 

My father's large layout has a stack on the reversing loop at the 'north' end so that the next train out of the tunnel isn't the one that just went in, and in total three or four trains can circulate on the main lines, with up to two more shuttling on the branch. However this still leaves plenty for the human operators to do, as there is a goods yard to shunt (with made up goods trains being swapped for others out on the main line). Passenger trains can also be swapped over, and locos changed, and even a push-pull service run along the main lines between the through trains. The branch line can also be switched to manual control for more complex operation.

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

I think in some circumstances a layout can be set up so that parts of it can be run automatically or manually depending on the number of operators available. For example, Peter Denny's 'Automatic Crispin' was designed to operate the fiddle yard of 'Buckingham' once Crispin went off to University. I am not aware whether the AC was 'switched out' during Crispin's visits home in University holidays.

 

I remember reading about that and it's a pity I've never seen it.  That was a quite venerable layout in the days when analogue control was the only option (other than clockwork!).  It believe it also assumed you were working to the block system, which very few modellers do.

 

Excellent in its day but I don't think it's relevant to a DCC layout. 

[RJS1977]

10 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I remember reading about that and it's a pity I've never seen it.  That was a quite venerable layout in the days when analogue control was the only option (other than clockwork!).  It believe it also assumed you were working to the block system, which very few modellers do.

 

Excellent in its day but I don't think it's relevant to a DCC layout. 

 

My point was that layouts can be designed in such a way that the automatic system can be used when there is a shortage of operators, or switched out when there are more, or the layout designed so that the automatic system operates a 'skeleton service' that operators add to when available. That applies whether a layout is analogue or DCC.

[Michael Hodgson]

11 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

 

My point was that layouts can be designed in such a way that the automatic system can be used when there is a shortage of operators, or switched out when there are more, or the layout designed so that the automatic system operates a 'skeleton service' that operators add to when available. That applies whether a layout is analogue or DCC.

You can do that with software like iTrain.  Very useful if you want to run the whole layout with fewer operators than usual.