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Just fitted some ultrascales to a Lima cl31, after a 9 month wait from ordering. Severe traction problems. I did another 31 a long time ago with no issues but this one definitely is a problem. Will try adding more weight tomorrow and see if that helps,if not it's back to the pizza cutters.

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2 hours ago, matto3868 said:

Just fitted some ultrascales to a Lima cl31, after a 9 month wait from ordering. Severe traction problems. I did another 31 a long time ago with no issues but this one definitely is a problem. Will try adding more weight tomorrow and see if that helps,if not it's back to the pizza cutters.

Good information, thanks.  Please let us know if extra weight has any effect.

 

IMO a 9 month wait is pure ridiculous so being able to buy Peter's wheels immediately will be great,  as long as decent traction can be achieved.   

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Update on the above. Did not matter how much weight I added,with ultrascales, totally no traction. So the pizza cutters have gone back in. Shame but hey ho.

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7 minutes ago, matto3868 said:

Update on the above. Did not matter how much weight I added,with ultrascales, totally no traction. So the pizza cutters have gone back in. Shame but hey ho.

Thanks for the update, very interesting.  I suspected as much.

 

I remember reading an article by George Dent in Model Rail some time ago regarding the fitting of those Ultrascale wheels, but wondered at the time how losing the traction tyres would affect performance.  I thought the article was inconclusive so didn't bother buying Ultrascales due to price. I reckoned you'd need to add lots of weight, but then would the pancake motor be strong enough to move the loco without overheating or even burning out, and at what speed? 

 

So will Peter's be any better?

 

Peter, have you tested pre production samples of these new wheels for performance please?

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, matto3868 said:

Update on the above. Did not matter how much weight I added,with ultrascales, totally no traction. So the pizza cutters have gone back in. Shame but hey ho.

The problem is that you can't add sufficient weight over where it is needed, over the driven wheels. Its counter productive to add weight over the dummy bogie.

 

What I did years ago for a Deltic, was to get a 2nd chassis and cut off the motor bogie chassis and assemble (with a little difficulty, due to the plastic used) onto your model. That way you end up with 2 power bogies. You can then add as much weight as you want.

I found best results, were to wire the bogies in series. This cured the over fast running and made a powerful model, that could haul 12 coach trains, with no trace of wheel slip.

The method should work with any double ended model and I suspect cheap models are available these days. Just as long as the motor works, which they usually do. Check that the models run at roughly the same speed, before you start. Note that later models have an extra gear in them and so run (slightly) slower. You need a matching pair.

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16 hours ago, matto3868 said:

Update on the above. Did not matter how much weight I added,with ultrascales, totally no traction. So the pizza cutters have gone back in. Shame but hey ho.

The problem  is that the motor bogie wheel upgrade cannot be looked at in isolation. The unpowered bogie needs to be made free running, and this can be significant work because Lima's pick ups are often really draggy and need to be binned and replaced with something better. Thus what folks various have done over the years is the better way:

 

6 hours ago, kevinlms said:

...get a 2nd chassis and cut off the motor bogie chassis and assemble (with a little difficulty, due to the plastic used) onto your model. That way you end up with 2 power bogies. You can then add as much weight as you want...

 

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34 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The problem  is that the motor bogie wheel upgrade cannot be looked at in isolation. The unpowered bogie needs to be made free running, and this can be significant work because Lima's pick ups are often really draggy and need to be binned and replaced with something better. Thus what folks various have done over the years is the better way:

 

 

Agreed; simply adding weight to a single driven bogie loco is increasing the load on the motor. The options would seem to be:-

Double-motoring, using a 'hacked up' second chassis to hold the second bogie.

Fitting a central can motor and flexible drive train, using a modified version of the original chassis. 

I've done both; the increase in haulage power is remarkable. People like Peter's Spares (and the sadly-missed East Kent models) sometimes have the relevant drive-train components in stock; otherwise, put a 'wanted ' advert on here, and see what pops up. Only a couple of days ago, someone was asking for suggestions for his 'mazac-pest' ridden Hornby Class 31s.

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But at the end of the day, is it really worth spending time and quite a lot of money money on Lima models?

 

IMO only a handful of classes look acceptable alongside current manufacturers' offerings.

 

Having said that I am currently refreshing three Lima class 156 - conversion to DCC, detailing and weathering. I might try Peter's wheels on one of them, depending on price. 

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4 minutes ago, cravensdmufan said:

But at the end of the day, is it really worth spending time and quite a lot of money money on Lima models?

 

IMO only a handful of classes look acceptable alongside current manufacturers' offerings.

 

Having said that I am currently refreshing three Lima class 156 - conversion to DCC, detailing and weathering. I might try Peter's wheels on one of them, depending on price. 

The 31, at least, is a reasonable-looking model. I also find it quite satisfying repurposing sows' ears to produce the odd silk purse.

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It depends.

 

I bought a Lima 37, in the exact livery/number I was looking for, for £18. It was and is a good runner. With detailing bits the whole project cost less than £35

 

The going price at Hattons for new Bachmann 37s is £145 + postage

 

If a set of new wheels cost £25-30 it might still be a worthwhile upgrade

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4 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

It depends.

 

I bought a Lima 37, in the exact livery/number I was looking for, for £18. It was and is a good runner. With detailing bits the whole project cost less than £35

 

The going price at Hattons for new Bachmann 37s is £145 + postage

 

If a set of new wheels cost £25-30 it might still be a worthwhile upgrade

You were certainly lucky to get one for £18, especially that it is a good runner.

 

I attend quite a few exhibitions and toyfairs and the going rate for Lima's is usually between £25 and £35. Admittedly those would be dealers prices.

 

But I do agree with Fat Controller that refurbing old models can be satisfying. I just don't like spending too much money on them! 

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29 minutes ago, cravensdmufan said:

You were certainly lucky to get one for £18, especially that it is a good runner.

 

I attend quite a few exhibitions and toyfairs and the going rate for Lima's is usually between £25 and £35. Admittedly those would be dealers prices.

 

But I do agree with Fat Controller that refurbing old models can be satisfying. I just don't like spending too much money on them! 

 

Off the second-hand stall at DEMU showcase. I agree with you about likely dealers prices, but bargains can be available on club stands and possibly on ebay

 

There's also the "here's one I found in the loft/back of the cupboard" scenario - at which point the cost is nil

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On 26/04/2019 at 16:09, PetersSpares said:

It's a new photo and no we are making geared wheels and dummy bogie wheels. Thanks Peter 

It is definitely the same photo again.  Exporting the photos and zooming in, you can see that the specks of dust on the wheels are the same.

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On 10/05/2019 at 11:03, D6975 said:

It is definitely the same photo again.  Exporting the photos and zooming in, you can see that the specks of dust on the wheels are the same.

I changed the original pic and added a new one to the messages. So the ones you see on the screen are the same but still different from the original that was removed. Thanks Peter 

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On 02/05/2019 at 17:04, Guest said:

Just fitted some ultrascales to a Lima cl31, after a 9 month wait from ordering. Severe traction problems. I did another 31 a long time ago with no issues but this one definitely is a problem. Will try adding more weight tomorrow and see if that helps,if not it's back to the pizza cutters.

 

On 03/05/2019 at 17:38, Guest said:

Update on the above. Did not matter how much weight I added,with ultrascales, totally no traction. So the pizza cutters have gone back in. Shame but hey ho.

 

 Just wondering if the Ultrascales have a poor flange and tread profile compared to RTR when running on RTR track.

I put a sheet of lead in a U up over the power bogie and lead in the nose end beyond the bogie to maximise adhesion and then get as much drag out of the tail as possible, bin the standard weight and have no added weight further back than half way down the body.

I bin any wheel back wiper pick ups and just leave the axle wipers which seem to have no more resistance than some pin point axles do.

Class 31 always were slippery customers, don't expect miracles from one.

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On 04/05/2019 at 11:24, cravensdmufan said:

But at the end of the day, is it really worth spending time and quite a lot of money money on Lima models?

 

IMO only a handful of classes look acceptable alongside current manufacturers' offerings.

 

Having said that I am currently refreshing three Lima class 156 - conversion to DCC, detailing and weathering. I might try Peter's wheels on one of them, depending on price. 

The Lima 101 is in many people's opinion a more accurate bodyshell than the Bachmann one.  The more recent Limby one has a decent mechanism, but if you've already got the Lima ones then these wheels present another option rather than sticking a Limby chassis under a Lima body.  The 117 was also a decent model and once you've disposed of a brake van and made a few other minor improvements gives a pretty decent 117 (or a couple of other classes with a bit more work).

I have 5 Lima DMUs that could use these wheels (plus 2 that already have black beetles)

I also have 2 detailed Lima 47s that would benefit as well.

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On 04/05/2019 at 12:24, cravensdmufan said:

But at the end of the day, is it really worth spending time and quite a lot of money money on Lima models?

 

IMO only a handful of classes look acceptable alongside current manufacturers' offerings.

 

Having said that I am currently refreshing three Lima class 156 - conversion to DCC, detailing and weathering. I might try Peter's wheels on one of them, depending on price. 

 

All valid points, but there are some modellers without your bottomless pockets who would be quite happy to just replace the pizza cutters with decent wheels, and voila, a half decent model at a bargain price.

 

Mike.

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I would get 2 sets of 6 axles. I've bought a couple of Railroad class 31s to get more modern wheels & motors under Lima bodies, but using these wheels would allow the Lima chassis to be reborn. Rejig the Railroad bodies and I can double the 31 fleet! :) (I think having more 31s is a good thing...? ;) )

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  • 2 months later...
On 25/04/2019 at 15:27, PetersSpares said:

We are doing the two standard sizes and selling all axles in singles so customers can buy however many they need for four or six axle locos. The Smaller wheel will be fore the Class 73.

Hello Peter,

 

Regarding the Lima class 73 understandable and appreciated that you are trying to go down the keep it simple and cost effective route for the wheels, but would it be possible to produce the correct size for the Class 73 (3'4") which is  approx 13.4mm. Hornby use this diameter in its 4-VEP Motor bogie which I have used to replace the original under scale 12mm wheels on the Hornby 73. Although the Difference is only .72mm in height terms it improves the look considerably as it now sits at a more acceptable height. It also looks more in keeping alongside the Dapol Model which uses 13.3mm Diameter wheels.

 

I'm sure there are many people with models just crying out to be detailed  I have 10 myself that I cannot justify replacing but cannot use due to going over to code 75 track so this could be a big boon to people such as myself who are working to a limited budget.

 

Cheers Trailrage

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Stoopid sausage fingers!
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  • 2 months later...
On 03/05/2019 at 18:00, cravensdmufan said:

Thanks for the update, very interesting.  I suspected as much.

 

I remember reading an article by George Dent in Model Rail some time ago regarding the fitting of those Ultrascale wheels, but wondered at the time how losing the traction tyres would affect performance.  I thought the article was inconclusive so didn't bother buying Ultrascales due to price. I reckoned you'd need to add lots of weight, but then would the pancake motor be strong enough to move the loco without overheating or even burning out, and at what speed? 

 

So will Peter's be any better?

 

Peter, have you tested pre production samples of these new wheels for performance please?

 

 

 

 

We are still when time permits looking at there wheels but as everyone mentions traction is really lacking when the tyres are not there. Thanks Peter 

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51 minutes ago, PetersSpares said:

We are still when time permits looking at there wheels but as everyone mentions traction is really lacking when the tyres are not there. Thanks Peter 

Hi Peter

is it worth keeping the traction tyres while not ideal the improved wheel profile should be worth buying the sets for my DCC fitted Lima models seem to short on the point frogs hopefully an improved profile would stop this.

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1 hour ago, PetersSpares said:

We are still when time permits looking at there wheels but as everyone mentions traction is really lacking when the tyres are not there. Thanks Peter 

 

I've found adding a little bit of extra weight over the motor bogie helps with traction once the tyres have been removed, but not too much though. Plus extra weight elsewhere. Easy enough to do in something like a Class 73, but not so easy in a Class 117 DMU (Don't ask me how I know.....)

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  • 2 months later...

Is there any sign of these wheels making an appearance soon ??????   I am working on a 47, and a 33 at present, and was looking into turning a set of originals to a more acceptable profile.  If however the new wheels are due any time soon, I might just wait..

 

Rob

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I used ultracales in a Lima class 20. Throw away the pick ups and fit phosphour bronze wire ones. Add a little bit more weight (there is some space) ..and traction improves dramatically.

 

Baz

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