4F '44523' Under heavy overhaul

[17A]

Hello all,

 

I'll keep this short and sweet. On my 9th birthday, 2003 I was very lucky to be given 'the colliery set' I cherished the 4F '44523' that came with that set, however my basic understanding of maintance didn't do the 4F any good. During a running session the 4F wasn't running properly, my lack of knowledge saw me spray WD40 ...... yes thats right WD40 on the tender wheels, allowing the WD40 to run into the motor. Putting the 4F back on the track, give it some power, the tender starts to smoke....... a live steam affect. Sadly the 4F stopped running altogether, after this my interest in model railways was put into a siding.

 

Fast forward to 2019 and I have started an electrical engineering apprenticeship. The 4F has been at the back of my mind so now, I am looking to get the 4F running again. What I've done so far I've replaced the carbon brushes and springs as can be seen in the photo. My soldering skills are not quite there yet, but I've reached a snag. Trying to run the 4F with the new carbon bushes still came up with smoke. The photos below are taken after the new carbon bruhes where trailed. I think it might be the Motor Armature, but second opitions are most welcome.

[Gordon A]

Have you given the commutator a good and careful clean?

When cleaned also clean the faces of the brushes.

 

Gordon A

[Roy Langridge]

I wouldn't be surprised if the WD40 got into the armature and the smoke has come from the enamel coating on the winding burning. In which case you may need a new armature.

 

*edit: Whilst WD40 is not conductive itself, it can dissolve and carry other things that are.

 

Roy

Edited April 26, 2019 by Roy Langridge

[Il Grifone]

Check the resistance between the commutator segments. I'm not sure about this motor, but it's typically about 10 ohms per winding so should measure about seven between the segments. This seems to have suffered arcing across the gaps which has burnt the backing material. This will have to be cleaned up. It's not usually a good idea to dismantle a permanent magnet motor as breaking the magnetic circuit causes the magnet to lose its magnetism causing loss of power and overheating.

 

At worst, eBay can probably provide a replacement motor or complete mechanism.

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

4 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the WD40 got into the armature and the smoke has come from the enamel coating on the winding burning. In which case you may need a new armature.

 

*edit: Whilst WD40 is not conductive itself, it can dissolve and carry other things that are.

Correct. The solvent in WD40 is a mixture of alkanes and will both dissolve the wire enamel and be ignited by sparks on the commutator. I doubt it is worth rewinding because the commutator plating may also be damaged.

[Steamport Southport]

Peters Spares were selling them recently.

 

For a lot less than the price advertised currently (out of stock). I think they were about £5.

 

https://www.petersspares.com/Hornby-x8304-Dapol-3-pole-armature-2p-4f-dean-goods.ir

 

 

 

Jason

[DCB]

Long term the solution might be a Bachmann 3F chassis.  The Airfix/ Hornby tender drive isn't really up to modern standards and the wobbling and jumping around of the tender when the wheels slip is very unprototypical.   My Airfix Castle grew a Hornby Tender drive when its original motor failed but I don't know of any suitable modern tender drive short and narrow enough to fit the 4F tender.   Subsequently the Castle was withdrawn as the traction tyres  make the track dirty.

[Stoker]

Oh no! You let the magic smoke out!

In all seriousness, would a mashima upgrade be a workable solution?

[17A]

Hello all,

 

Sadly it's not looking good in the Mundesley-on-sea locomotive works. I've given the commutator a jolly good clean, It would be a shy of a miracle for the 4F to start working after so long of not running. But if I can change a wire feed motor on a welding machine, An AC contactor, make-up a new capacitor bank and change a mig welder rectifier. How hard can getting a 00 gauge 4F up and running be?

 

So for my first victim test subject I've come up with a small shopping list.

• Hornby X6855 Class 4F 0-6-0 Loco Driving Wheel Set £14.63
• Hornby X6859 Class 4F 0-6-0 Tender Wheel Set £14.14
• 4F Class Tender Chassis Bottom £10.49
• 4F Class Tender Assembly £14.49
• Hornby H133 Railroad Fowler 4F 0-6-0 Loco Body BR Black No: 44198 £22.99
• 1227 size 5 pole skew wound 12v model loco motor small OO gauge £16.00

In total I'm looking at spending roughly £92.74. If I want to go for a heavy overhaul, but that price I could buy a second hand 4F. I did stumble across a website 'Brassmaster kits' http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/4F.htm  their 4F kit build might point me in the right direction. But as @Stoker suggested a Mashima motor could work. It would be safe to say the WD40 didn't help. So my plan of attack email Hornby in the off chance they might have a 4F loco drive chassis. I'll keep a look out for any Bachmann 3F chassis. I'm in two minds whether to use a 4F donor.

 

I've also had a quick look at DJH motors & gearboxes. It's nice that there are motors & gearboxes that are off the shelf, that will work. But it's experience of fitting the dam thing in and price. But baby steps first.    

 

         

 

     

[Stoker]

Just checked and there are a couple on ebay in the 40-50 quid range. Might be a good alternative if this one needs a lot more than just a motor to work.

[Jim49]

17A, one alternative might be to go for an ebay 4F as Stoker suggested and keep your original as an un-powered dummy. Simply remove the armature face plate, armature, gears and pick-ups and the loco will happily be pushed along by any suitable loco which will do all the work. This assumes that the remains of your 45523 are all in good condition but by the length of your shopping list for spares this may not be the case.

 

Good luck

 

Jim

[sjp23480]

17A if you are very attached to your original 4F I have a spare motor and gears to enable you to resurrect the tender drive.

 

Happy to send it to you for a small consideration for P&P?

 

PM me if interested. 

 

Stephen

[SteveyDee68]

33 minutes ago, sjp23480 said:

17A if you are very attached to your original 4F I have a spare motor and gears to enable you to resurrect the tender drive.

 

Happy to send it to you for a small consideration for P&P?

 

PM me if interested. 

 

Stephen

 

And that is why I  enjoy the company of modellers!

[17A]

oh crumbs that is a very generous offer, thank-you @sjp23480.

 

After my last post I saw a advert from rails of Sheffield for a brand new Bachmann 4F '£79.50' those little teasers. Where I am at the moment, I've stripped down the '4F 44523' loco body and tender. Hunting down spare parts for the newer 4F 'R3031/R3314' are far and few between when the newly designed 4F was released only in 2011 in think, happy to be corrected, but yet older parts are plentiful.  

 

A quick email from Hornby as found that there aren't any loco drive chassis 'Thank you for your email, we do not have any chassis available & We cannot advise on changing yours, there is a significant difference between the two, we have never tried to do what you are considering trying to do, so unfortunately we cannot assist you any further'. Fair comments I think, meanwhile I sent a email to Peter's spares to ask about Hornby X6469 Fowler Class 2P / 4F Motor & Worm Gear. Saying there's been a back order with the supplier with no arrival date.

 

Amusingly I've found in the library K.Chadwick's 'Locomotive building on the cheap' Volume 2. I do applaud any modellers that have followed through. I'd be interested to see or hear how the process was of converting ready-to-run loco into unavailable classes.