Advice requested for starting out in narrow gauge

[tony.carnell]

Hi,

 

 

 

For some considerable time now I've been toying with building a narrow gauge model railway, but being essentially a newbie to the hobby I thought I'd ask for advice on what I'm sure is a large and complex topic.

 

Ok, a bit of background...

The last input I had in building a model railway was when I was young (pre-teen) with my father. The layout was N gauge and since neither of us really knew what we were doing it was riddled with electrical issues, and as a consequence its running was flaky at best, non-existent at worst, and so didn't commence much beyond the bare baseboard with a couple of card buildings, and some patchy crude scenery. The remnants of this (mis)adventure now languishes in a cardboard box in our loft (see attached photo).

 

Since then I've been an armchair railway modeller off-and-on but as I have now entered by fifth decade, and with retirement now appearing as a faint glimmer on the horizon, the desire to build something has returned.

 

So what do I want to build?...

The layout needs to be compact, so that I can easily store it (possibly on a shelf) and move it around, so I guess a micro or cameo sized layout would be best.

I appreciate that many very fine minimum space layouts have been built to standard gauge, but narrow gauge has appealed to me for some time now, and lately industrial narrow gauge has particularly piqued my interest. I think it’s the griminess and the slight air of dereliction and neglect that is often inherent with this type of railway that has captured my imagination.

As far as scale is concerned, I’m thinking 7mm, although I’m not fixated on it. I like the increased level of detail that can be incorporated into this scale, especially when taking into consideration my ageing eyes, and when married to a narrow gauge subject a reasonably interesting layout should be possible in a reasonable size.

Now we turn to the gauge to model in.

There’s O-16.5, which I believe is the most popular narrow gauge because it uses OO ready made track, but would the pointwork for this gauge be non-prototypical for an industrial themed layout?

For some time I was thinking of O14 because I was drawn to KB Scale’s range of industrial trackwork and rolling stock, but I understand the owner of the company is currently struggling to find the time to devote to the venture, and of course everything would have to be hand built, so perhaps for now (and considering my newbie status) this will have to be relegated to the back burner.

Then there’s O9, which again employs ready made track; N. This has an appeal because of its space saving potential, and also the fact that I’ve got the remnants of track from my youth, but I have read that rolling stock can be top heavy due to the 9mm gauge, and therefore be more prone to derailments.

Having listed these gauges, I’m not really married to any of them, so please feel free to offer your own thoughts on the subject, after all the purpose of this post is so elicit useful advice and information from those forum members who are far more experienced and knowledgeable than I am!

 

Finally, where do I start?…

In common with the majority of people who are new or returning to the hobby after a number of years, I’m keen to get track laid and trains running, but should I instead concentrate on building my skills, possibly by constructing a couple of items of rolling stock, or a building? That makes sense to me, taking small steps at first and building confidence, but does it risk my becoming disheartened if it doesn’t seem to go well and abandon the whole venture as a result? I wouldn’t say I was fickle, but I’d be lying…!

 

Well this first post is getting long, so I’ll leave it there for now. If you have any thoughts, questions, advice or information that you think useful, please let me know.

 

Here’s hoping this is the start of a wonderful new adventure!

 

All the best,

Tony.

[tractionman]

hi Tony,

 

I'm more a narrow gauge dabbler but for what it's worth I do like 5.5mm scale, using 16.5mm gauge track which is 3' gauge prototype, as it's easy to use the widely available (and cheap) 00 chassis for locos and for stock, as well as 0-16.5 Peco track etc. The buildings and scenery need scratch building but that's part of the appeal.

 

Some inf here:

 

http://www.55ng.co.uk/

 

http://smallbrookstudio.co.uk/kits-parts/4569521210/5.5mm-scale-NG

 

 

My own paltry efforts in 5.5mm are on RMWeb, eg

 

 

 

And there's always plenty of prototype inspiration in books and visiting the real thing.

 

Whatever you decide I hope it goes well.

 

all the best,

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2019 by tractionman
link added

[Steamport Southport]

Maybe have a look at this from PECO, available from all good model shops, WHSmith and online.

 

https://peco-uk.com/collections/modellers-library/products/your-guide-to-narrow-gauge-railways

 

If you are looking for the most popular narrow gauge scale it's OO9 by a very long way. Which is 4mm scale running on 9mm track. It's the only one with a significant amount of ready made or kit items. You can now buy RTR locomotives from Bachmann and Heljan, PECO make carriages and wagons.

 

But if you are after detail then I would go for O16.5 or O14.

 

 

 

Jason

[BernardTPM]

If you're looking at an industrial line it might well be worth considering using radio control as your locos are likely to have no more than four wheels. There's some really small equipment available these days and some have even used it for H0 scale 6.5mm gauge models. If you do go the 09 route then there should be more than enough room to fit it in.

[Nearholmer]

Buy a copy (cheap secondhand) of a rather old book called "Narrow Gauge Railway Modelling" by Don Boreham.

 

There, that's my advice.

 

You might find that, on first inspection, a lot of it seems utterly outdated, but it truly isn't, and I think it is he who gives one of the sagest pieces of advice about the topic that I've ever heard or read: model in the largest scale that you can accommodate.

 

On most NG railways, not a lot happened most of the time (grass growing, paint peeling, that sort of thing), and they are best studied close-up, hence the bigger the scale the better.

 

Consider 16mm/ft (yes, that big) models of small industrial prototypes, the sort of things that Roy Link/KB used to supply kits for. IP engineering, for instance, make some kits , as do Slaters. A Lister petrol loco scales out at 120mm long, which is hardly gigantic.

 

And, don't, really, really don't, accidentally create a model of a typical SG BLT with the rails too close together ......... its the commonest mistake made.

 

Enjoy!

 

Kevin

 

 

Edited April 27, 2019 by Nearholmer

[sir douglas]

for a complete beginner it may help to make a small layout such as 1 foot by 6 inch  and it doesnt matter what gauge it is, with just a bit of track and some points, just to use as a test bed to practice making the board, track laying, wiring and scenery and doing like this wont take up much time and materials when mistakes are made.

 

if you go down the O16.5 route the Small brook range is good for beginners, simple cast bodies that fist onto readily available OO chassis'

http://smallbrookstudio.co.uk/kits-parts/4569521210/0e---7mm-Narrow-Gauge

[south_tyne]

I know you are leaning towards 7mm scale, but if you did consider 009 then I urge you to join the 009 Society. A wonderful bunch of folks and you get a quality monthly magazine in the 009 News, which I personally feel is more than worth the annual subscription alone. I retain my membership despite not actively modelling in the scale at the moment. The Minitrains range is a quick and easy entry into the scale from a rtr point of view, and they produce a good range of lovely small industrial locos and accompanying stock: http://www.minitrains.eu. Dundas Models is the best source of kits and rtr for 009 and well worth a look: https://dundasmodels.co.uk/webstore/index.php

 

If you were wedded to 7mm scale then 09 would be a good option. The Black Dog Mining range (Steve Bennett) was/is an excellent source of kits and bits and pieces for industrial railways (as opposed to estate/miniature railways). There is a great range of kits for small diesel locos and accompanying wagons, very simple and easy to build. However, I am not sure as to the availability of these at present and haven't heard much about the range in recent years - perhaps someone else can enlighten?  The website is here and appears to be live: https://blackdogmining.weebly.com/black-dog-mining-co.html

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by south_tyne
Added links

[jamespetts]

There is much to be said for using track planning software such as AnyRail or SCARM to work out how much of each scale that you can fit into your desired space (including fiddle yard space - never underestimate the necessary size of a fiddle yard).

 

Also, research and make lists of available ready to run rolling stock in each scale; unless you are confident enough in your kit building abilities to be able to build all or most of what you want from kits, then you will need to make sure that you will have enough rolling stock to keep you happy ready to run (and enough of any particular railway's rolling stock to run a model that is temporally and geographically coherent, if that is important to you).

 

I believe that a higher quantity of ready to run track and rolling stock is available in 009 (that is, 1:76 scale on 9mm track representing circa 2ft narrow gauge as used on the Ffestiniog, etc.), including ready to lay narrow gauge specific track with proper sleeper spacings for narrow gauge (N gauge track will look silly at 1:76), although there may be 1:43.5 scale track and rolling stock of which I am not aware, so research will always pay dividends.

 

Very best wishes with your project!

Edited April 28, 2019 by jamespetts

[PatB]

Just to offer an off the wall alternative, have a look through the cornucopia of narrow gauge micro ideas at http://www.carendt.com/ and then at the affordable, and easy and fun to build, large scale locos and stock here, and consider going SM32. Cheapo RC gear can be had here, eliminating track power  issues.

 

Even if you don't want to go large scale, the Arendt site is a gold mine of ideas if you're short of space or want to built something small as a test piece.

[south_tyne]

6 hours ago, PatB said:

Just to offer an off the wall alternative, have a look through the cornucopia of narrow gauge micro ideas at http://www.carendt.com/ and then at the affordable, and easy and fun to build, large scale locos and stock here, and consider going SM32. Cheapo RC gear can be had here, eliminating track power  issues.

 

Even if you don't want to go large scale, the Arendt site is a gold mine of ideas if you're short of space or want to built something small as a test piece.

 

I don't think that's off the wall at all! There are some excellent budget models available in 16kn scale narrow gauge, offering fantastic value for money. You have also noted the added bonus of radio-radio-control eliminating any much of the electrical element. Of course you can pay thousands for high-end live steam models too, but there is something to suit every pocket. The added bulk and mass of models is also very appealing.

 

Just for one example of the wide range of stuff available: https://www.grsuk.com

 

[PaulRhB]

Minitrains range is definitely worth a look and married with the Peco 009 setrack you can build very compact layouts. Peco do quite a bit of small 009 rolling stock rtr and Bachmann are introducing some smaller 009 locos this year too.

If you want to consider O9 then there are quite a few resin kits contact Avalon models for his range - sales AT avalonmodels.co.uk

 

I'd also recommend joining NGRM online as it’s got modellers and inspiration and advice across all the scales and gauges with much more 09 content than here and many also frequent here.  You’ll need to register but it’s a very good site for narrow gauge. 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by PaulRhB

[NeilHB]

Tony, 

 

If you are giving serious consideration to modelling narrow gauge in 7mm scale, I suggest joining the 7mmNGA. Membership will give you access to the back collection of Narrow Lines, the in-house magazine, plus our collection of handbooks, including a number which contain projects for beginners. You’ll also get discount on products purchased from the association. 

 

If you are free on Saturday 8th June, our 40th Anniversary Exhibition is being held in Burton-upon-Trent Town Hall. As the organiser I can say it’s well worth a visit, as we try to gather a lot of the specialist 7mm Narrow gauge traders under one roof for the day. Plus plenty of layouts to inspire. 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

11 hours ago, jamespetts said:

 

I believe that a higher quantity of ready to run track and rolling stock is available in 009 (that is, 1:76 scale on 9mm track representing circa 2ft narrow gauge as used on the Ffestiniog, etc.), including ready to lay narrow gauge specific track with proper sleeper spacings for narrow gauge (N gauge track will look silly at 1:76), although there may be 1:43.5 scale track and rolling stock of which I am not aware, so research will always pay dividends.

 

Very best wishes with your project!

 

Peco make track as well as a few kits and bits.

 

https://peco-uk.com/collections/7mm-o/o-16-5-16-5mm?view=48&layout=grid

 

 

 

Jason

[tony.carnell]

Wow, all I can say is a massive thanks for all your sage advice guys! 

 

There's a lot there to ruminate on, and when I've done that I may be back to pick your collective brains further!

 

Thanks again for your cumulative help.

Tony.

[cp409067]

23 hours ago, tony.carnell said:

.....

 

Then there’s O9, which again employs ready made track; N. This has an appeal because of its space saving potential, and also the fact that I’ve got the remnants of track from my youth, but I have read that rolling stock can be top heavy due to the 9mm gauge, and therefore be more prone to derailments.

 

 

*

As an experienced modeller in "O9" (I have three exhibition layouts in the scale/gauge combination) I am very surprised to read the suggestion that stock is prone to derailments. Whilst it is true the height to width ratio might be problematic, the solution is of course in getting the centre of gravity low down. Put simply it is about providing weight in the chassis.

 

"O9" has great potential for building detailed layouts that feature interesting operation in small spaces. But a word of warning it is seductive.

 

CP

[hayfield]

I dabble a bit in narrow gauge. If you like detail then nothing beats 7 mm scale, whichever gauge you choose. The Peco great little trains and Smallbrook models are good starting points

 

For shear quality of RTR them H0m takes a lot of beating

 

For fun and larger scenic modelling 009 might be the answer

 

I have put them in my order of preference

Edited April 28, 2019 by hayfield

[Andy Hayter]

The better half models H0e (009 to all intents and purposes given that her and many other layouts are freelance).  It is a good scale to work in but I would agree with the sentiments that going for a larger scale allows a much better opportunity to work on the fine details.  If we were starting again, I think 0-16.5 or even 1:60 metre gauge using 00 track would be the choice having had the experience or working to a smaller scale.

[tony.carnell]

Right, now I've got some time to myself I'll sit down and read through all the really useful comments you guys have given me 

 

On 27/04/2019 at 15:48, tractionman said:

I'm more a narrow gauge dabbler but for what it's worth I do like 5.5mm scale, using 16.5mm gauge track which is 3' gauge prototype, as it's easy to use the widely available (and cheap) 00 chassis for locos and for stock, as well as 0-16.5 Peco track etc. The buildings and scenery need scratch building but that's part of the appeal.

 

5.5mm scale - that's a new one on me Keith!

The buildings and scenery are definitely something I'm looking forward to creating. If I'm honest the running of trains is secondary to creating the scene and the little details that roots the layout and makes it 'sing'.

I'll check out the links you provide - much appreciated

 

On 27/04/2019 at 17:22, Steamport Southport said:

Maybe have a look at this from PECO, available from all good model shops, WHSmith and online.

 

https://peco-uk.com/collections/modellers-library/products/your-guide-to-narrow-gauge-railways

 

Thanks Jason. Actually I've already got that book, but your comment has provoked me into digging it out again!

 

On 27/04/2019 at 17:22, Steamport Southport said:

If you are looking for the most popular narrow gauge scale it's OO9 by a very long way.

 

Yes, I've seen a lot of OO9 layouts in the modelling press and at exhibitions. I remember seeing County Gate a few years ago at EXPONG and was totally blown away by it.

The more I think about the scale though, the more I'm drawn to 7mm or larger. It's the finer details I'll really enjoy adding, and I'm not sure my eyesight will permit me to work in a smaller scale!

 

On 27/04/2019 at 18:40, Nearholmer said:

Buy a copy (cheap secondhand) of a rather old book called "Narrow Gauge Railway Modelling" by Don Boreham.

 

There, that's my advice.

 

Just done that Kevin I did a search for the book and it was available on Oxfam's site, so I've bought a useful and informative book and helped out a charity - double win!

 

On 27/04/2019 at 18:40, Nearholmer said:

Consider 16mm/ft (yes, that big) models of small industrial prototypes, the sort of things that Roy Link/KB used to supply kits for. IP engineering, for instance, make some kits , as do Slaters. A Lister petrol loco scales out at 120mm long, which is hardly gigantic.

 

Wow, I love the detail you can get with those 16mm models, but I'm wondering if it's just too big for a small layout? Definitely food for thought though and I'll dig a bit deeper into the scale.

 

On 27/04/2019 at 20:07, sir douglas said:

for a complete beginner it may help to make a small layout such as 1 foot by 6 inch  and it doesn't matter what gauge it is, with just a bit of track and some points, just to use as a test bed to practice making the board, track laying, wiring and scenery and doing like this wont take up much time and materials when mistakes are made.

 

if you go down the O16.5 route the Small brook range is good for beginners, simple cast bodies that fist onto readily available OO chassis'

http://smallbrookstudio.co.uk/kits-parts/4569521210/0e---7mm-Narrow-Gauge

 

That's essentially what I was thinking of, just a small layout to get me into the swing of it. Not too daunting as a newbie project!

I like some of those Smallbrook Studio kits. More food for thought there!

 

19 hours ago, south_tyne said:

If you were wedded to 7mm scale then 09 would be a good option. The Black Dog Mining range (Steve Bennett) was/is an excellent source of kits and bits and pieces for industrial railways (as opposed to estate/miniature railways). There is a great range of kits for small diesel locos and accompanying wagons, very simple and easy to build. However, I am not sure as to the availability of these at present and haven't heard much about the range in recent years - perhaps someone else can enlighten?  The website is here and appears to be live: https://blackdogmining.weebly.com/black-dog-mining-co.html

 

I have looked at the Black Dog Mining Co kits before. They do look interesting, but I too remember reading somewhere recently that their availability is in question, although if they're still available to order on the website one would think those concerns may be unfounded.

 

18 hours ago, jamespetts said:

There is much to be said for using track planning software such as AnyRail or SCARM to work out how much of each scale that you can fit into your desired space (including fiddle yard space - never underestimate the necessary size of a fiddle yard).

 

I bought RailModeller Pro for my Mac some time ago because someone recommended it. It's pretty powerful and I have tinkered with it in the past. I'll undoubtedly revisit it when I've come to a decision on which scale/gauge to go for.

 

17 hours ago, PatB said:

Just to offer an off the wall alternative, have a look through the cornucopia of narrow gauge micro ideas at http://www.carendt.com/ and then at the affordable, and easy and fun to build, large scale locos and stock here, and consider going SM32. Cheapo RC gear can be had here, eliminating track power  issues.

 

That's not 'off the wall' at all - it's sound advice 

I have visited the site in the past, but as you say it's a cornucopia of ideas. I'll head over there again once I've sent this post!

 

Radio control is also something I've read about recently. As you say it completely eliminates track power issues. Certainly something to think about, but I would imagine it's not really practical in anything other than the larger scales?

 

10 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

I'd also recommend joining NGRM online as it’s got modellers and inspiration and advice across all the scales and gauges with much more 09 content than here and many also frequent here.  You’ll need to register but it’s a very good site for narrow gauge. 

 

I forgot that I had already joined NGRM online some years back. I'll head over there and make an introductory post.

 

7 hours ago, NeilHB said:

If you are giving serious consideration to modelling narrow gauge in 7mm scale, I suggest joining the 7mmNGA. Membership will give you access to the back collection of Narrow Lines, the in-house magazine, plus our collection of handbooks, including a number which contain projects for beginners. You’ll also get discount on products purchased from the association. 

 

If you are free on Saturday 8th June, our 40th Anniversary Exhibition is being held in Burton-upon-Trent Town Hall. As the organiser I can say it’s well worth a visit, as we try to gather a lot of the specialist 7mm Narrow gauge traders under one roof for the day. Plus plenty of layouts to inspire. 

 

I actually was a member some years ago. I let my membership lapse in February 2013 (he says consulting his back issues of Narrow Lines!) when life decided to throw me one of its curve balls. Rejoining is definitely on my to-do list.

I'll have to check my busy social calendar (he says with tongue firmly in cheek) and see if I can make this years exhibition.

 

4 hours ago, cp409067 said:

As an experienced modeller in "O9" (I have three exhibition layouts in the scale/gauge combination) I am very surprised to read the suggestion that stock is prone to derailments. Whilst it is true the height to width ratio might be problematic, the solution is of course in getting the centre of gravity low down. Put simply it is about providing weight in the chassis.

 

"O9" has great potential for building detailed layouts that feature interesting operation in small spaces. But a word of warning it is seductive.

 

It's good to hear that the size of locos in O9 isn't a problem, it's definitely one of the front runners in my mind at the moment.

If I remember the writer of the piece I was referring to was commenting that most of the figures to fit in the locos were white metal and as such tended to raise the centre of gravity and make them more unstable.

 

--

 

Well you guys have excelled yourselves in giving me so much homework to carry out!

Thanks so much for all your help and advice.

 

Tony.

[Huw Griffiths]

If you're worried about the weight of figures in various "O" scales / gauges, there are also a number of plastic figures available, which could be used or adapted:

• Preiser produce a number of figures (some painted, some not) - some railway figures sold as in 1:43.5 scale - and architectural figures sold as 1:50.
• A number of our American friends have been known to adapt (usually soldier) figures from 1:48 military kits (US "O" is 1:48 - sometimes called "quarter scale", as in "quarter inch per foot). The likes of Tamiya also produce boxes of these figures.

Meanwhile, Tamiya, etc also offer 1:48 kits of various trucks (and even a Komatsu bulldozer), which could either be given a "civvy street" makeover or, in some cases, even adapted into freelance "critters".

 

(Yes - that bulldozer again - photos exist on the internet of a very similar Caterpillar design, stripped of its tracks and used as 2'6" gauge works locos in a salt extraction facility. Other credible conversion fodder might include kits of GAZ AA, AAA or M trucks - essentially Russian clones of Ford AA trucks - either as railtrucks or, in pairs, as the basis for a Wismar railbus or similar.)

 

While on the subject of homebrew loco and rolling stock conversions, it might be worth looking through certain 7mm NGA beginner's guides - various editions of which have included examples of O-16.5 conversions of secondhand OO RTR.

 

For me, the availability of affordable secondhand OO (and sometimes HO) RTR, capable of being converted, would be a definite advantage. However, kits and 7mm NGA articles aren't the only options for homebrew conversions. Although some people have been known to use (or convert) Fleischmann Magic Train ("FMZ") stock on their layouts, the Lima (later Hornby) CCT chassis is a reasonably similar size / wheelbase to that found in a number of FMZ 4 wheel coaches.

 

There's also nothing to stop you downloading / adapting suitable card kits. For example, I've recently been looking at modifying the design of one loco kit, on the Jagsttalbahn website, to allow its use on a (3 axle) Bachmann Junior chassis:

 

http://www.jagsttalbahn.de/bastel.html

 

http://www.jagsttalbahn.de/uploads/media/BastelbogenV22.pdf

 

I must admit that I haven't yet got to the point of being able to build this one (time issues, due to other commitments). However, if you've got access to a vector drawing package like Adobe Illustrator, it isn't hard to use something like this to create cutting templates for plastikard - then drop the cab (to give something looking a bit like a Köf 3), change the model length, add extra axleboxes, stuff like that.

 

 

Of course, I'm not saying that you should do any of this stuff - but it's certainly possible. Whether or not you (or anyone else) choose to do any of this depends on whether you're even interested ... . (That's right - for me, the interesting bit is working out how something could be done.)

 

Anyway, whatever you choose to do - in whatever scale / gauge - you've really only got one person to please. For this reason, I hope you go for what interests you.

 

 

Regards,

 

Huw.

[Steamport Southport]

I'm wondering whether it was the Springside kits which had the problem with weight. They do look a bit ungainly.

 

http://www.springsidemodels.com/id155.htm

 

http://www.springsidemodels.com/id153.htm

 

 

 

Jason

[PaulRhB]

The Springside kits ran fine at realistic speeds, finding the chassis is the hard bit these days. With these ‘problems’ you are left wondering what their track was like or how fast they were running!  

There are plenty of seated or standing O figures available in plastic from Preiser, Woodland Scenics and Bachmann they could be modified into a driver. When I dabbled in 09 with Black Dog resin bodied locos I used whitemetal drivers to add weight without any issues  

[Nearholmer]

Has anyone mentioned Gn15 as an option?

 

16.5mm gauge, to 1:22.5 scale, making use of figures and bits and bobs intended for use with LGB.

 

There are some highly creative models around in this format, although, other than the very, very few Heywood  railways, locomotive hauled narrow/minimum gauge on 15" was exceedingly, vanishingly, incredibly rare in actuality.

[Northroader]

Two angles on this search of yours,

a) using standard gauge OO points on narrow gauge O layout, say PECO setrack, isn’t much of a problem, you just smother the sleepers with ballast and weeds, which usually happened anyway. I have in the past resleepered them, but at the risk of introducing defects, now I just don’t bother.

b) do you intend to try a closefit similarity to a known prototype, or do something which may be described as credible, or just fly away on something more, shall we say, lighthearted, which narrow gauge does lend itself to.

have you picked up on these sites?

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCvK1QFYbLAahLV50fj19MLg

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/21932-sandy-shores-a-history-of-the-line/

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/1956-pictures-of-bridport-town/

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Northroader

[tony.carnell]

Again, a great big thank you to everyone for their advice. It all helps to further enlighten the newbie (and also muddy the waters at the same time!) 

 

Those links you gave were particularly useful Northroader. There's some damn fine modelling going on out there!

 

All the best,

Tony.

[Northroader]

Well, I picked those as good examples of different scales, and also differing “approaches”, and that’s just staying in this country. After that, there’s any amount of things which are attractive, Europe or America, say.