DJ Models Announcement 01/05/19

[DavidH]

7 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

IIRC the reason given was that Paypal would not give partial refunds, so only some full refunds were given.

 

A friend, running a small market stall, taking PayPal, recently had someone send her funds in error. I don't pretend to understand the system perfectly, but apparently you can just refuse a payment made in certain way (or, simply let it lapse and it goes back), at no cost to the business or the person making the original payment (as far as we can see ...).

 

So what I conclude from that is that you send whole amounts back if you can, as formally refunding an amount other than the original payment could incur a PayPal fee, as PayPal might consider that a new payment. See "how to refuse a paypal payment" via a popular online search engine ...

[adb968008]

17 minutes ago, DavidH said:

 

A friend, running a small market stall, taking PayPal, recently had someone send her funds in error. I don't pretend to understand the system perfectly, but apparently you can just refuse a payment made in certain way (or, simply let it lapse and it goes back), at no cost to the business or the person making the original payment (as far as we can see ...).

 

So what I conclude from that is that you send whole amounts back if you can, as formally refunding an amount other than the original payment could incur a PayPal fee, as PayPal might consider that a new payment. See "how to refuse a paypal payment" via a popular online search engine ...

I have successfully done partial refunds on PayPal many times for many years.

 

usually relates to ebay selling and a buyer paying for two items and two lots of postage, when I’ve combined the item and refunded an overpayment. The amount of partial refund is determined by the person doing the refund, it’s not an automated feature. 

It also refunds me the % of fee from PayPal originally charged  for the purchase and does not cost me anything to do.

Edited May 3, 2019 by adb968008

[dibber25]

4 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

Sorry to go a little OT - could someone point me in the direction (or PM, or just reply) a little more about the tooling section?

 

I don't understand how you can own tooling but not be able to produce anything else from it?

If it were me, I'd be looking to ship that tooling (assuming it's a half sensible size) to my house.

You'd need to be able to get hands on the tooling first. 

[chris p bacon]

1 minute ago, DavidH said:

So what I conclude from that is that you send whole amounts back if you can, as formally refunding an amount other than the original payment could incur a PayPal fee, as PayPal might consider that a new payment. See "how to refuse a paypal payment" via a popular online search engine ...

 

I think that is the case for partial refunds if you are a normal trader, (you pay the 20p)  But in this case DJM claimed that Paypal closed his account and insisted he refund the monies as they were not happy with the way the account was being run. He then refunded only some of the monies and kept others to pay for the CAD etc.

 

The cynic in me (which I always admit to being) actually thought this was not entirely to do with PP placing restrictions on his account but was a move to close the Paypal refund procedure*, as moving to direct payment it would be harder to gain a refund. The ridiculous scenario DJM then ended up in was a project that was part funded and started but had no money and many of those that were refunded lost faith and didn't recommit.  

 

*If Paypal were that unhappy they would have used the Direct Debit facility that you have to have with another account, to pull the monies back that they were in dispute with.

[jjb1970]

I think the issue facing DJM is a confidence one. If this was an isolated outburst people might put it down to an uncharacteristic and momentary lapse of judgement.

 

However, we have seen so many lapses of judgement. Whatever the true situation with the factory I think his judgement in airing washing which may or may not be dirty was questionable (and if the washing was in fact dirty then what does it say about his judgement in selecting a factory and the agreement entered into?). There was the late filing of accounts, let's be honest, small companies being late with accounts is hardly unusual but he was at real risk of being struck off by Companies House, I seem to remember it was ascribed to his accountant failing to lodge the accounts. There was the website saga where it was apparently fault of the web designer. There was the issue with PayPal and refunds with some questionable posts about how PayPal works. DJM seem to have a poor understanding of consumer laws and have had some questionable T&Cs for crowd funded projects which I believe were amended after Andy Y pointed out issues to DJM. And of course there was the allegation that Revolution was trying to induce DJM to join them in illegal anti-competitive collusion.

 

Even if you apply the most charitable interpretation to all these issues it still begs questions about judgement as there is something of a track record for lapses in judgement. Which then raise the consequential matter of confidence.

[ruggedpeak]

Top tip - don't use PayPal for crowd funding. PayPal is great for buying stuff and great for vendors who understand its strengths and weaknesses but it is not set up for crowdfunding speculative schemes. PayPal is a digital mostly automated business - if people cause problems PayPal will take arbitrary action against them. People are deluding themselves if they think PayPal (or any other global digital business) will bend to their personal requirements.

 

After their initial wild west phase in the early days I have used PayPal for business and personal transactions and found it to be highly effective. But there are some things I don't do with it. Don't use it for big transactions if you are selling as they favour customers by default (and aligned to legal requirements) so a dodgy punter can get an instant refund if they game it the system   As long as you understand it it is fine.

[njee20]

1 hour ago, PaulCheffus said:

When the Paypal refunds were made due to the issue with Paypal's terms why wasn't the money already spent deducted from everyone's refund rather than just not refunding certain people?

 

I've always wanted an N gauge 92 and was deciding whether to purchase a CJM model when the DJM one was announced. I then ordered one just before the Revolution announcement of the same model. I cancelled the DJM one as soon as the Revolution one was announced as they were doing the livery I really wanted, I was going to repaint the DJM one initially. I got a full refund but this was prior to any work being undertaken by DJM.

  

 I also wanted an APT and expressed an interest initially but the events that followed made me decide not to bother with anything further from DJM.

  

Are you me? *eyes Paul suspiciously*

 

On the PayPal thing I imagine Dave would sooner have done that -  would have helped keep people on board, it was a very easy point to walk away. That whole saga was weird in itself, whilst I understand PayPal having strict AML conditions in place it can't be all that unusual for a business account - lots of money from various sources comes in... sits there... gets spent. As Chris/Dave said - if it was genuinely AML concerns then surely he'd have had to refund everything, not just that balance that remained available from his "ill-gotten" funds? Otherwise that's really, really bad AML protection! "Can you please refund the proceeds from your bank robbery?". "No, we've spent it, there's only £5 left". "Ok, just refund that, we'll call it quits". 

[acko22]

Hi all,

 

Well this is my bit on here over this debacle:

 

Firstly I have challenged him else where on this but in that first announcement (before the backlash and back peddling) he made some very strong accusations aimed at other manufacturers, retailers and a factory he used (one which other manufacturers use without issue). Well DJM if you are going to point fingers come out straight with it as some of these comments in themselves could be seen as libellous against them parties. 

 

Also and I have been duly informed by a friend who owns a engineering business in Trafford Park that unless you have it in written contract which by your own word "I am old school and have always believed that the value of a person’s word is gospel" which suggests there may not be one. Then as a contracted party paid to do the work by Hattons and Kernow to produce a model any work carried out remains the property person(s) or organisation including any and all design work.

 

So you actually unless as previously stated you have a contract that states you own the design outright, it remains the property of the person who paid for the work to be carried out. Therefore you have no rights to claim the IP on those commissioned models!

 

May I suggest in this case a flaw in your own diligence and not that of the retailers, who have every right to go direct to the factory with designs they own!

Edited May 3, 2019 by acko22

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

 

 

* I buy replacement Electric Toothbrush heads from Ebay (delivered from China), for a fraction of the price of a Braun example. Can I tell the difference? One has a Braun label & pretty box, the other doesn't. There's no attempt to make me think the one I'm buying is a genuine Braun; however the appearance (excl. label & box), performance and manufacture of the non-branded example makes me think they're coming from the same factory.  Price difference? Huge

Beware

These have been known to disintegrate in the mouth ejecting parts down the throat.

One reason to never buy Chinese ones unless you couldn't care less. (Braun ones are definitely not made in China.)

[polybear]

3 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Beware

These have been known to disintegrate in the mouth ejecting parts down the throat.

One reason to never buy Chinese ones unless you couldn't care less. (Braun ones are definitely not made in China.)

 

Thanks for the warning, however I've been using them for years now with no issues.

Do you have any idea of the original source of the warning by any chance?

[woodenhead]

11 minutes ago, acko22 said:

 

Firstly I have challenged him else where on this but in that first announcement (before the backlash and back peddling) he made some very strong accusations aimed at other manufacturers, retailers and a factory he used (one which other manufacturers use without issue). Well DJM if you are going to accuse them come out straight with it especially when you have accused them with illegal activity "I have been approached to collude in the N gauge marketplace (a very serious and illegal approach - and it was done in writing)". If this is the case come out with it as you claim to have proof if you are not willing to then reality is that why should we believe you and making a claim without showing proof is in itself a libellous statement as people know who you are directing that comment at!

 

It's not libellous if he hasn't named the other party, I don't think it is correct to say people know who he is directing that comment at, I dont know.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, NinOz said:

Where are the dislike and disagree options?

They would be getting a good work out from me for some of these posts.

Only having like and agree options seems to give a sense of only agreement with some rather poor taste and pointless posts.

 

CFJ

Hi Nin or is it CFJ?

 

If you disagree, say so and why you disagree. Forums are for discussion. The "Like" etc buttons are to stop repeated "Nice one mate" comments.

 

Apart form your own post what other post are pointless?

 

I would address you by your given name, it is far more politer to sign off as Fred or Harry.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Clive Mortimore

[woodenhead]

7 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Nin or is it CFJ?

 

If you disagree, say so and why you disagree. Forums are for discussion. The "Like" etc buttons are to stop repeated "Nice one mate" comments.

 

Apart form your own post what other post are pointless?

 

I would address you by your given name, it is far more politer to sign off as Fred or Harry.

Nice one Clive 

 

Julian

[phil-b259]

24 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

Thanks for the warning, however I've been using them for years now with no issues.

Do you have any idea of the original source of the warning by any chance?

 

I would suggest that the issue is not with the actual toothbrush itself - rather the detachable heads with the bristles and mechanism to turn the basic vibration of the toothbrush into something more useful to clean the teeth.

 

As such, provided you purchase heads from regular UK sources (e.g. Tesco, Boots, Asda, etc) you will be fine.

 

 

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, polybear said:

 

Thanks for the warning, however I've been using them for years now with no issues.

Do you have any idea of the original source of the warning by any chance?

TV: Watchdog (or Fake Britain?) Some were being imported by UK traders and AFAIK trading standards were involved to get them stopped.

IIRC The original action was to do with "passing off" fake items but when tested the standard was found to be way below that of Braun and considered dangerous.

 

EDIT I found a (non BBC) link about the counterfeits:

https://www.thecounterfeitreport.com/product/208/Replacement-Brush-Heads.html

 

There are several others

Edited May 3, 2019 by melmerby

[Ravenser]

52 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

It's not libellous if he hasn't named the other party, I don't think it is correct to say people know who he is directing that comment at, I dont know.

 

But it potentially exposes every manufacturer of British N - including startups and commissioners - to raids and investigation by the competition authorities for possible illegal activities . The potential fines are heavy - a percentage of global turnover, for each year of infringement. The costs of defending yourself are potentially substantial. The investigators can and do seize any documents and computers which may contain relevant information

 

That comment is a lit match flicked into a tank of petrol.

 

Extremely irresponsible - especially if it turns out to be untrue or a complete mis-statement of the real situation

 

I don't know who he meant, either.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Ravenser
To add last line

[Sir TophamHatt]

 

Quote

Quote

Please note this is a DJM crowdfunding project and DJM will be invoicing, designing, and finally supplying the finished model and is therefore totally responsible for your investment.

Also: Please Note: Any 'pure' crowdfunding venture is an investment with no guarantee of return, and your invested capital (deposit payments) are at risk. Please consider carefully whether you wish to partake in this venture before ordering.

 

 

That's just misleading.

 

Kickstarter is a "pure crowdfunding venture" with a guarantee of return (or a refund). - incorrect info. 

Tarting all projects with the same brush isn't great.

 

Edited May 4, 2019 by Sir TophamHatt

[njee20]

Kickstarter is purely a platform to host crowdfunding ventures. It's probably the most reputable one - it requires you have a working prototype before launching, and offers a reasonable amount of protection, compared to (say) Indiegogo, which is pretty lawless. Personally I've back 3 things on Kickstarter, I have one, I doubt I'll ever see a second, and genuinely not sure on the third. Ultimately if money gets spent and ideas falter there's absolutely nothing you can do.

 

To crowdfund something simply means to obtain the monies upfront from people, rather than a conventional approach with sales made at the end once the cost has been bourne.  Kickstarter are keen to make it about 'pledges', in exchange for a reward (like a product), which is effectively a way of saying "this is a bit risky, you're not ordering something, you're giving some money in the hope that you'll get a thing sometime". A project doesn't need to be on a dedicated platform to be crowdfunded, I never quite get that; "it's not really crowdfunding, it's not on Kickstarter.". 

If I say to my friends "give me £5 each, I'll go and get a round of drinks", you've effectively crowdfunded that!

[AY Mod]

7 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

Kickstarter is a "pure crowdfunding venture" with a guarantee of return (or a refund).

 

Incorrect - https://www.kickstarter.com/fulfillment

[Ryde-on-time]

13 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

 

 

That's just misleading.

 

Kickstarter is a "pure crowdfunding venture" with a guarantee of return (or a refund).

Tarting all projects with the same brush isn't great.

 

Unfortunately those who invest in Kickstarter projects are not necessarily protected, this is a famous example

 

https://medium.com/kickstarter/how-zano-raised-millions-on-kickstarter-and-left-backers-with-nearly-nothing-85c0abe4a6cb

[PaulCheffus]

1 hour ago, njee20 said:

Are you me? *eyes Paul suspiciously*

 

Hi

 

Nope :-) 

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[ruggedpeak]

38 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

But it potentially exposes every manufacturer of British N - including startups and commissioners - to raids and investigation by the competition authorities for possible illegal activities . The potential fines are heavy - a percentage of global turnover, for each year of infringement. The costs of defending yourself are potentially substantial. The investigators can and do seize any documents and computers which may contain relevant information

 

That comment is a lit match flicked into a tank of petrol.

 

Extremely irresponsible - especially if it turns out to be untrue or a complete mis-statement of the real situation

 

I don't know who he meant, either.

Please stop this hyperbolic nonsense. Even if what is alleged did occur it is not illegal and definitely won't result in model railway makers being raided. It is however potentially libellous to suggest it is.

 

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

It's not libellous if he hasn't named the other party, I don't think it is correct to say people know who he is directing that comment at, I dont know.

Incorrect. If it can reasonably be deduced who it is it is libellous. They don't have to be named.

Edited May 3, 2019 by ruggedpeak
typos

[acko22]

Lets clear the misconceptions:

 

Crowdfunding is a method of funding which is in effect a form of investment just like you get in banks low/medium/high risk, this can be done by anyone in any format they wish so in model railways we put in our money in expectation of a model, what risk you classify it as is up to you.

 

Kickstarter is purely an organisation that facilitates crowdfunding activity, although by using them it gives a higher degree of protection to both parties in a crowdfunding activity.

They do this by asking the proposer a for a working business plan to show how they intend to proceed should the funding goal be reached, which while shows a working plan is still by no means a guarantee of an end product.

For the investor kickstarter can and do hold on to the funds until milestones are reached in the case of modelling, release funds for design and CADs to be done before the next set of funds are released for tooling etc. Should this not be reached Kickstater can then refund the investors equally what is left in the fund.

The down side to using Kickstarter is there is a fee payable to them which as an admin charge to manage the finances.

 

While many firms across many industries have show that the crowdfunding model can work there has been many failures some more spectacular than others.

This is DJM where needs to hammer down and show that he can make this funding model work to his advantage as goodwill and investors are starting to turn thier back!

[Winter123]

For those in the know, what was Mr Jones specific role at Dapol? What acclaimed models did he have input & influence over?  Genuinely would like to be educated on this, because from what I see, since his 'departure', Dapol have flourished. Maybe at a steady pace, maybe with some minor teething problems but overall have produced some excellent stuff.

 

My main concern though is for the crowdfunders. I was lucky that I pre-ordered a Class 92 from my local model shop but cancelled it ages ago after seeing no progress. Losing £30 is bad enough but some people appear to have lost in the hundreds. With many bailing or about to withdraw the rest may as well do a KLF .... go and sit in a field and burn all their money.

[81C]