RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted May 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 12, 2019 19 minutes ago, Darius43 said: As the cat pictures have now appeared is it not time to lock this thread until there is new information - or an announcement or announcement of an announcement from DJM. Darius Nope...Delete the cat pics..the world would be a better place. 8 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brittannia Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, chris p bacon said: Nope...Delete the cat pics..the world would be a better place. Said the dog sorry it is getting stupid Edited May 12, 2019 by brittannia clarification 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted May 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 12, 2019 37 minutes ago, Not Jeremy said: Toto has been watching trains all day and is chilling out. Why don't we be more like Toto..... Anyone got any close up views of favourite pets they'd like to share? The Works Forecat...... 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted May 12, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 12, 2019 3 hours ago, njee20 said: Dave blamed that on a lost computer hard drive, meaning he lost the details of everyone he owed a model to. He went through refunding some folk a year or so back I believe. No backing up of vitally important data? In this day and age? Seriously? Incompetence.... 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWsTrains Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 47 minutes ago, NHY 581 said: The Works Forecat...... This topic seems to edge ever nearer to it's "Godwin's Law" point. There! have I done it just now? Colin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stock_2007 Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 I enjoyed the cat photos...there you go I like trains and cats but sadly not threads that go on for 50 pages and get no where! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cape Town Trev Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 As I see it for my N gauge items: 1. King - Digitrains are purchasing enough to allow the project to proceed. Like the rest of us they I trust that they are providing up front cash for DJM to move to tooling. If progress by DJM is slow would Digitrains do as Kernow did and step in and take over? Probably not as they are not commissioning. Cash flow should not be a problem. 2. Class 92 - so far behind Revolution Trains. However, GF continued with the Voyager when Dapol announced there’s. I note GF are doing another run of Voyagers. Are DJM confident that the market is big enough? Perhaps reconfirmation from current class 92 crowdfunded is an idea. Being crowd funded is there some monies left that could be refunded? Otherwise I need to be prepared to write this off. Overall I would be content if the Class 92 was dropped and DJM fully and speedily delivers the King. However how do I get assurance based upon past events including before Dapol? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkSG Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 13 hours ago, melmoth said: Rhetorical question, but how unlucky do you have to be before it looks like basic incompetence? But it is basic incompetence. Not losing a hard drive - that is just bad luck (assuming you haven't been mistreating it). But not having backups of data stored on that drive is incompetence. This is business IT management 101. All of your data needs to be backed up regularly and stored in multiple locations. That's not just simple good management. It's a legal requirement now. GDPR stipulates that you must ensure the "confidentiality, integrity and availability" (my emphasis) of personal data, and the ICO's guidance on the subject states that you must be able to "restore access and availability to personal data in a timely manner in the event of a physical or technical incident". The only way to do that is to ensure that your backups are effective and comprehensive. Not having a robust business IT system isn't just careless, it's actually illegal. 1 4 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidH Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Don't forget that the NThusiast issue over the hard drive predates GDPR by quite a few years. Still unlucky/incompetent not having a back-up, but it's important not to get too hung up on the idea of illegality under legislation that hadn't been thought of at the time. 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, DavidH said: Don't forget that the NThusiast issue over the hard drive predates GDPR by quite a few years. Still unlucky/incompetent not having a back-up, but it's important not to get too hung up on the idea of illegality under legislation that hadn't been thought of at the time. How were the orders placed? If via e-mail, it should have been possible to figure out what was ordered from them. Via a platform, from that. Both of those are not affected by hard drive failures. All my data (mostly digital photoes from holidays etc) exist at least 3 times, once on a PC and twice on 2 hard drives (with a small "best" selection online). 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 4 hours ago, Cape Town Trev said: As I see it for my N gauge items: 1. King - Digitrains are purchasing enough to allow the project to proceed. Like the rest of us they I trust that they are providing up front cash for DJM to move to tooling. If progress by DJM is slow would Digitrains do as Kernow did and step in and take over? Probably not as they are not commissioning. Cash flow should not be a problem. 2. Class 92 - so far behind Revolution Trains. However, GF continued with the Voyager when Dapol announced there’s. I note GF are doing another run of Voyagers. Are DJM confident that the market is big enough? Perhaps reconfirmation from current class 92 crowdfunded is an idea. Being crowd funded is there some monies left that could be refunded? Otherwise I need to be prepared to write this off. Overall I would be content if the Class 92 was dropped and DJM fully and speedily delivers the King. However how do I get assurance based upon past events including before Dapol? Whilst DigiTrains have committed to purchasing a number of locomotives to allow DJM to move to tooling there is no guarantee they have placed any funds into this project. They are a business and likely it will be cash on delivery not the other way around - that protects them and anyone who makes a purchase from them (which will be covered by credit card protections, sale of goods act etc as it won't be a crowdfunding purchase) against the risk of DJM not delivering. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidH Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, JSpencer said: How were the orders placed? If via e-mail, it should have been possible to figure out what was ordered from them. Via a platform, from that. Both of those are not affected by hard drive failures. All my data (mostly digital photoes from holidays etc) exist at least 3 times, once on a PC and twice on 2 hard drives (with a small "best" selection online). No idea, sorry. I wasn't defending the issue, other than to point out it wasn't covered by GDPR back then. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted May 13, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 13, 2019 11 hours ago, John M Upton said: No backing up of vitally important data? In this day and age? Seriously? Incompetence.... I don't want to defend Dave, because I agree, surely you have paper records if nothing else, but this must have been early 2000s, which technologically is far from "this day and age". We barely had HTTPS let alone GDPR protecting how your data was used! I suspect a lot of records were never online anyway, but yes, keep a physical copy, we just about had flash drives to back things up to etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted May 13, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 13, 2019 53 minutes ago, DavidH said: Don't forget that the NThusiast issue over the hard drive predates GDPR by quite a few years. Still unlucky/incompetent not having a back-up, but it's important not to get too hung up on the idea of illegality under legislation that hadn't been thought of at the time. Data protection existed before the GDPR and it has been a requirement since the 1980s under the UK Data Protection legislation to maintain records secure. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted May 13, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 13, 2019 They were secure. They were so secure that no other copy of them existed, so they were irretrievably lost when a single storage location failed. We can either crucify Dave for being lax with data security or for being lax with having backups, not both! 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 On 12/05/2019 at 07:26, jjb1970 said: I think the bit of the story that would clarify things greatly if it was to enter the public domain is the reason for the breakdown between DJM and factories and the status of the design work and tooling done by the factories for DJM. Despite the various allegations thrown around we have only been given one side of events, that being the side from one party to the dispute. I'm quite behind in my reading, so it was only yesterday I got as far as the Talking Points article in May's Railway Modeller. A comment from Accurascale's Fran Burke put me irresistibly in mind of DJ Models' ill-judged press release: We find that manufacturing facilities in China get blamed for a lot, but at the end of the day it is easy to blame those who have no voice. While the potential for delays and mistakes was acknowledged (hardly, I'd add, unique to China!), the context of Mr Burke's remark was that of a very positive relationship with the Chinese manufacturers. 7 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 I thought Ravensers insight is the most pertinent part of this thread - 31 projects in 3 scales not delivered by DJM. Apropos of very little, but in a similar vein - trying to see the bigger picture through all the noise - can anyone tell me if the following things have an individual in common? Tampergate The original Ixion Manor - 8% too large... Dapols difficulties in the mid 00s Coreless motors and overly 'clever' designs that don't work Splashergate Ashpangate performance issues with Hattons 48xx DCC problems with Kernow's D600s Are there other things that would be on this list? I'm not interested in crowdfunding, announcements or non-delivery, they've been beaten to death over the past couple of weeks. I'm interested in patterns of behaviour, and how they repeat over time (its part of my job/research) and having spent a little bit of time 'researching' the record, I am seeing what appears to be a consistent pattern over more than a decade, but there are gaps in the record and lots of 'I know someone who knows the whole story' hints and whispers. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted May 13, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 13, 2019 2 hours ago, MarkSG said: But it is basic incompetence. Not losing a hard drive - that is just bad luck (assuming you haven't been mistreating it). But not having backups of data stored on that drive is incompetence. This is business IT management 101. All of your data needs to be backed up regularly and stored in multiple locations. That's not just simple good management. It's a legal requirement now. GDPR stipulates that you must ensure the "confidentiality, integrity and availability" (my emphasis) of personal data, and the ICO's guidance on the subject states that you must be able to "restore access and availability to personal data in a timely manner in the event of a physical or technical incident". The only way to do that is to ensure that your backups are effective and comprehensive. Not having a robust business IT system isn't just careless, it's actually illegal. Not confined to DJM..quite a few of the mega global businesses have been careless with their it systems as have various government departments on occasion. Tbh this thread is getting somewhat tired now in my opinion. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 8 minutes ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said: I thought Ravensers insight is the most pertinent part of this thread - 31 projects in 3 scales not delivered by DJM. Apropos of very little, but in a similar vein - trying to see the bigger picture through all the noise - can anyone tell me if the following things have an individual in common? Tampergate The original Ixion Manor - 8% too large... Dapols difficulties in the mid 00s Coreless motors and overly 'clever' designs that don't work Splashergate Ashpangate performance issues with Hattons 48xx DCC problems with Kernow's D600s Are there other things that would be on this list? I'm not interested in crowdfunding, announcements or non-delivery, they've been beaten to death over the past couple of weeks. I'm interested in patterns of behaviour, and how they repeat over time (its part of my job/research) and having spent a little bit of time 'researching' the record, I am seeing what appears to be a consistent pattern over more than a decade, but there are gaps in the record and lots of 'I know someone who knows the whole story' hints and whispers. Designing RTR models is a complex process with an almost infinite opportunity for things to go wrong, even with the best research and will in the world. I tend, thus, to be a lot more forgiving of errors or compromises than perhaps I once was. Nevertheless, there are limits to what we should accept and, despite claiming that better standards would be achieved, DJ Models has proved relatively hapless compared with the record of other manufactures, perhaps excepting only Oxford Rail. So, to your list you might add the various errors on the ex-LSW Gate Stock, some of which can be understood as proceeding from relying upon the drawings of the prototype in pre-Grouping condition (in Weddell) and failing to interpret them correctly. It is this, more than anything, that caused me to question the competence of this manufacturer. Given that Mike King, the man who literally wrote the book on these, was announced as a collaborator, I would be confident that there was no shortage of correct information available. Yet we saw: - Mistaking the gas cylinders for battery boxes, thus producing them in the wrong number (subsequently cured IIRC), in the wrong place and to the wrong size. - Producing the taller LSW torpedo vents, not the shorter SR replacements - Modelling a gas lamp top on an electrically lit coach, but only one, because the others were hidden on the drawing by the torpedo vents. Matters with no apparent explanation included: - A number of errors in representing the SR modified ends - And, most surprisingly, designing the underframes as mirror images of the prototype, with all the brake-gear etc the wrong way round. This result was despite a re-tool. These are all matters sureIy within the remit of DJ Models; I suspect that it is high time that this manufacturer stopped blaming everyone else for the current parlous state of its affairs. 1 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, Edwardian said: errors on the ex-LSW Gate Stock, ah, Gatestockgate 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 55 minutes ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said: I thought Ravensers insight is the most pertinent part of this thread - 31 projects in 3 scales not delivered by DJM. Apropos of very little, but in a similar vein - trying to see the bigger picture through all the noise - can anyone tell me if the following things have an individual in common? Tampergate The original Ixion Manor - 8% too large... Dapols difficulties in the mid 00s Coreless motors and overly 'clever' designs that don't work Splashergate Ashpangate performance issues with Hattons 48xx DCC problems with Kernow's D600s Are there other things that would be on this list? I'm not interested in crowdfunding, announcements or non-delivery, they've been beaten to death over the past couple of weeks. I'm interested in patterns of behaviour, and how they repeat over time (its part of my job/research) and having spent a little bit of time 'researching' the record, I am seeing what appears to be a consistent pattern over more than a decade, but there are gaps in the record and lots of 'I know someone who knows the whole story' hints and whispers. I'm not sure if the Dapol 21/29 should be on this list, as Dave started the ball rolling: Quote [Posted as DapolDave] Members 2,421 1,150 posts Report post Posted November 22, 2010 Hi everyone, glad we seem to have made peoples day with this announcement We have started cad/cam work on it using the dimensions we know of, but like the class 22 it will take help (which i'm not afraid to ask for) and a little time. Having said that it is being 'fast tracked' if you will excuse the pun for 2011. so if any of you can help with anything from dimensions of bodyside grilles (yes we are missing that crucial one) to pictures of the class in service (oh for a time machine and access to Woodhams) then we would be very grateful. Like all our recent projects of this ilk, i will keep you posted, and try and update things when i think its worth it, but rest assured it wont be a 2 year burnt down factory, and start from scratch job like the 22 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted May 13, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 13, 2019 Dave's business management skills have been commented upon in this thread but recent posts are now also listing a series of technical errors in models. Dave, where are you? Are you going to explain/defend or is everyone free to draw their own conclusions based on your current silence? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Dave has from all accounts left an auto-reply on the DJM e-mail saying he won't be available until after the 17th. I haven't seen any further information, but I note from an earlier post on this thread that he has posted on another (non railway) forum so access to internet/connectivity wouldn't seem to be the issue. Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted May 13, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 13, 2019 (edited) As discussed on the previous page(s), he's "out of the office" until 17th May, but continues to post on other forums. I do understand his withdrawal from railway forums (although I think it was a dismal idea), but that does rather add salt to the wound! Edit: too slow Edited May 13, 2019 by njee20 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Darius43 Posted May 13, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 13, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, David Stannard said: I highly doubt that he will do that, given the extremely hostile mob of pitchfork and torch waiving villagers here he would be hung drawn and quartered by the online lynch mob at the first stoke of a keyboard. Also we already have 50 pages of tripe with an anouncement that wasn't announced here, the RMWEB server would collapse and their would not be enough storage space for the god knows how many pages of responses that would entail. Granted that Dave has few defenders on this thread, however this is due in no small part to his having taken a lot of money from crowdfunders (myself included) and then been less than communicative with them with respect to progress and where the money has gone. This is increasingly stark contrast to some other new-entrants to the UK model railway manufacturing scene who would appear to have a much more professional approach to doing business. Not all of this thread is "tripe" and if we are using that word then, in my opinion, it would apply equally well to DJM's original announcement. Seek the battle; don't complain about the wounds. Darius Edited May 13, 2019 by Darius43 1 14 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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