DJ Models Announcement 01/05/19

[Covkid]

On 12/05/2019 at 14:12, classy52 said:

 

Good job of mincing my words to suit your narrative and accusing me of ranting whether mild or not.

Seriously go back and read what I said in response to the post I had responded to and then give yourself an uppercut.

 

I don't have a narrative.

I do however believe that all model companies have periods in their history where their products could have been more accurate, or robust. The Bachmann class 25 was a huge disappointment for me, and clearly a lot of folk weren't so impressed with the "simple" approach by Hornby over 5 years ago. Since then Bachmann and Hornby have generally been delivering high quality product to model shop shelves. 

 

Your post which I have C&P'd here, I believe is slanted towards the "new kids on the block" without giving credence to the "cornerstones" of our hobby - at least in 4mm scale anyway

 

I respectfully disagree with the above post.

I am personally supporting Accurascale, Cavalex, Dapol & Hatton's by purchasing their products because at the end of the day they have and will deliver unlike DJM which means we are not going back to the good olde days of just Hornby & Bachmann and putting up with their same tired old models.

The like's of Accurascale & to a certain point Hatton's are shaking up the market with their detailed models which is great because the big players such as Hornby & Bachmann will need to up their game which is great for all of us, like I said DJM is being left behind and more than likely end up as a casualty for the reasons already discussed here and elsewhere and I personally cannot support DJM in it's current state.

 

You might think Accurascale and Hattons are "shaking up the market" but in my view the majority of producers of model trains are delivering very nice product indeed, which is actually highlighting the fact that DJM is not "raising standards" at all. I still think your post above is a little discrediting towards the "majors" but hey........  

 

      

[truffy]

56 minutes ago, PMP said:

Imag[in]e then if the original press release had started,

’On/After taking legal advice DJM has ..’

 

If he had, either there would be no announcement, or there would be no ensuing frothing, because the message would've passed a sanity check.

Do I get a prize?

[KDG]

@wombatofludham

 

Nice VC10 reference. Made an ex rigger happy!

[Colin_McLeod]

36 minutes ago, darrel said:

 

Communication does not seem to be his strong point. 

 

Then when he does send an update to APT crowdfunders, there's all this nonsense about not telling anybody for two weeks.  Dave seems to be under the impression that crowdfunders appreciate this concept that knowing the update before others is important to them, but the policy only sparks the same debate on the APT thread every time.

[black and decker boy]

21 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

I don't have a narrative.

I do however believe that all model companies have periods in their history where their products could have been more accurate, or robust. The Bachmann class 25 was a huge disappointment for me, and clearly a lot of folk weren't so impressed with the "simple" approach by Hornby over 5 years ago. Since then Bachmann and Hornby have generally been delivering high quality product to model shop shelves. 

 

Your post which I have C&P'd here, I believe is slanted towards the "new kids on the block" without giving credence to the "cornerstones" of our hobby - at least in 4mm scale anyway

 

I respectfully disagree with the above post.

I am personally supporting Accurascale, Cavalex, Dapol & Hatton's by purchasing their products because at the end of the day they have and will deliver unlike DJM which means we are not going back to the good olde days of just Hornby & Bachmann and putting up with their same tired old models.

The like's of Accurascale & to a certain point Hatton's are shaking up the market with their detailed models which is great because the big players such as Hornby & Bachmann will need to up their game which is great for all of us, like I said DJM is being left behind and more than likely end up as a casualty for the reasons already discussed here and elsewhere and I personally cannot support DJM in it's current state.

 

You might think Accurascale and Hattons are "shaking up the market" but in my view the majority of producers of model trains are delivering very nice product indeed, which is actually highlighting the fact that DJM is not "raising standards" at all. I still think your post above is a little discrediting towards the "majors" but hey........  

 

      

My reading of the recent market developments are:

price rises and production delays by the majors have created the newcomers with a different business model but which require the higher prices now commonplace.

 

DJM was trying to create a USP of high detail and high spec models at a lower price to the majors. When his early attempts failed to fly, he turned to crowdfunding but hasn’t been able to command a higher price matching the current market but equally hasn’t been able to deliver (much) either.

 

i guess if DJM had more models rolling in for sale with good reviews then his asking price for each subsequent model could have risen too. This would then be self fulfilling in having more capital, more cash flow and more goodwill. Sadly, I’d say the opposite is the current truth, with zero for each.

 

[Ouroborus]

Maybe.

 

When DJM got going with his J94, I was prepared to believe in the setting higher standards.  I was struck my the weathering and let's be fair, it was good for a rtr model where up to that point it was usually a waft with an airbrush.  Each model was personally checked before being posted.

 

I have 4 j94s and 2 71s.  

 

For me, the wheels began to come off quite early on.  The coreless motor and gear train was crap.  Despite advice it needed more running in, it never really improved.  I read tales of woe from other buyers who opened the box to find it not working, leading me to question just how 'checked' these models were.  This wasn't helped by Hattons rejecting the whole consignment of Golden Arrow models due to QC issues.  Did nobody check these?

 

I was leading towards pre-ordering a Class 92 from DJM but swore that if it had a coreless motor, I certainly wouldn't.  But before the chance to order came about, my confidence was ebbing away.  The problems other people were having, the patchy performance I found, the questions about quality control all began to add up and long before the motor details came up, I decided that I had little confidence and kept out.

 

Much as I love the APT, I never once thought of ordering one.  Everything was always so vague and up in the air.   We had all the previously well covered matters of PayPal, HMRC, websites etc.  This all reinforced the feeling that keeping out was a good idea.

 

So here we now are with people wondering what their deposits have gone towards - some got refunds, some didn't on a seemingly arbitrary basis.  The website t&c is so obscure that it's worthless except for one key point.  The part where he wrote that 'your investment is at risk' was very stark and told me he didn't really know what he was doing.  This seemed neither to be a purchase, a pre-order nor crowd funding, but was an attempt to absolve him from responsibility should it fail.

 

The final shocker was the (unsubstantiated) report that he's busy on other forums, yet posts an 'out of office' on his website.  It rather reads like an ostrich burying it's head in the sand.   Just at the very moment his crowd funders want some information, he's ignoring them.   The 'off to China to get some answers' is hogwash.  To what exactly - the 92 is supposedly about to tool, the APT is coming along, so what is exactly is the need to get some answers???

 

I spent a bit of time reading the threads of other projects that Dave was involved with prior to and including DJM and it doesn't take long to see many many parallels.  Always a promise of jam tomorrow and when it eventually shows and it's not so sweet, it's somebody else's fault.

 

He was right on one thing though -your money is at risk with a DJM project. 

[royaloak]

51 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Then when he does send an update to APT crowdfunders, there's all this nonsense about not telling anybody for two weeks.  Dave seems to be under the impression that crowdfunders appreciate this concept that knowing the update before others is important to them, but the policy only sparks the same debate on the APT thread every time.

What some/most/all of the APT crowd-funders would have liked was some news about actual progress with the model, not all the fluffy rubbish which says nothing of importance.

[njee20]

To be fair I don’t think he’s ever said he’s gone to China to get some answers, merely that he’s not around until the 17th, and will try and provide answers then; I didn’t infer that his holiday was instrumental in providing those answers. 

 

Being visible on other forums, even just flyfishingweb.com or wherever he is, feels breathtakingly ill judged. Of course he’s welcome to split his home and work life, but there’s a time and a place...

Edited May 13, 2019 by njee20

[truffy]

32 minutes ago, Ouroborus said:

The part where he wrote that 'your investment is at risk' was very stark and told me he didn't really know what he was doing.  This seemed neither to be a purchase, a pre-order nor crowd funding, but was an attempt to absolve him from responsibility should it fail.

 

To be fair, that's pretty standard practice for any development project or future projection, especially when there are multiple unknowns.

Edited May 13, 2019 by truffy
clarification, I have only one DJM product and no future planned exposure

[Ravenser]

2 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Then when he does send an update to APT crowdfunders, there's all this nonsense about not telling anybody for two weeks.  Dave seems to be under the impression that crowdfunders appreciate this concept that knowing the update before others is important to them, but the policy only sparks the same debate on the APT thread every time.

 

I fear he may have been playing games with this forum. "This is for my supporters, not those nasty trolls on the internet.." Or waiting to see who "leaked" the update on here. I also fear that if any DJM project fails it won't be his fault in any way - it'll be RMWeb wot done it. (And there will be some in the hobby very ready to agree)

 

I know you've called for answers from Dave Jones, but I think the whole episode means that what we've got now are the only answers or info you are going to get out of him. This whole thing wouldn't have been set up if he meant to provide calm unemotional replies to questions. It's the equivalent of the unexpected press conference at which a shock statement is made, and the speaker simply leaves after it is stated no questions will be taken....

Edited May 13, 2019 by Ravenser

[Persephone]

1 hour ago, njee20 said:

 

Being visible on other forums, even just flyfishingweb.com or wherever he is, feels breathtakingly ill judged. Of course he’s welcome to split his home and work life, but there’s a time and a place...

 

Ill judged is being too kind, disingenuous is more like it. To come up with a very precise date of the 17th to have answers by was stretching credibility, but there was seemingly an automatic assumption, quite wrong, that he wouldn't have Internet access. Now to not even to give his investors a crumb of comfort whilst all this is going on, even if it is the usual empty rhetoric that emanates from DJM Tower is to be quite frank just extracting the urine. 

 

 

[jjb1970]

My own view is that there is enough information on this thread and others for people to form a judgement and arrive at their own conclusions. If people don't like the thread then use the ignore button, but personally I think a lot of legitimate and pertinent concerns and views have been expressed.

[Steamport Southport]

On 12/05/2019 at 21:24, Not Jeremy said:

Toto has been watching trains all day and is chilling out. Why don't we be more like Toto.....

 

Anyone got any close up views of favourite pets they'd like to share?

 

 

 

 

 

I hear the drums echoing tonight

But she hears only whispers of some quiet conversation....

 

 

 

 

Jason

[JSpencer]

12 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

i guess if DJM had more models rolling in for sale with good reviews then his asking price for each subsequent model could have risen too. This would then be self fulfilling in having more capital, more cash flow and more goodwill. Sadly, I’d say the opposite is the current truth, with zero for each.

 

 

Hattons Golden Arrow class 71 limited editions of 200 each are still "more than 10" available almost 2 years on despite price reduction since before Christmas. If the reputation for the model been excellent, they would almost certainly have have gone by now.

It did introduce some nice features (like changable headcodes) and is a clear descendent of the Dapol 73 (same DCC set up, same bogie pivot points) but regressed on the motor (far too small) and almost no down on the outer parts of the bogies (you track needs to be really flat - conversely the 73 has about 3/4mm drop, why couldn't the 71 have the same?). The Hornby one is inferior in some respects but remains a much more day to day user practical model. It romps round anything and has guts, being solid reliable performers.

On the other hand, if the faults were recognised, then there probably was not the funds to fix them. So the project may have reached a point of deliver as is or try to address the issues and hope extra funders can be found to pay for production (not easy once a duplicate is announced). Indeed, I suspect it was the Hattons order that finally pushed it into production.

After 3 years, The 74 had enough funds up to tooling, so we were missing at least the same number again to pay for production. This would be a warning sign to me in business, if crowd funding is not pulling in orders and financing fast enough (you really need figures within a 6 month or so period), I would not personally use it to commit myself on other big projects. 

 

There seems to have been a case of: Annoucement - oh not enough orders, Ok, I'll give it longer..... a year later, maybe if I do the CADs that will bring in more.... then later, maybe an EP.... The result is some customers were prepared to wait, hoping their favourite project would go ahead, others will loose patiance, with more and more moving to the loose patiance group as it drags on.

 

The 92 is an odd case. There was quickly a rival for the N gauge version. Looking back at the thread, DJ was confident he would beat them to getting it out (even if his own experience should have been a warning). The OO gauge version did not get enough orders at first, so shop versions were added - again another warning he should have taken notice - the 71 seemingly needing the same previously. The 92 projects were after the 71 showing how hard it is to get numbers (plus duplication!) and the 74 moving dreadfully slow. In business, you don't hope and pray, you calculate. If it takes too long to get a return or any return, you don't do it - especially if just cause customers to be unsatisfied.

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by JSpencer

[truffy]

8 hours ago, Persephone said:

Ill judged is being too kind, disingenuous is more like it. To come up with a very precise date of the 17th to have answers by was stretching credibility, but there was seemingly an automatic assumption, quite wrong, that he wouldn't have Internet access. Now to not even to give his investors a crumb of comfort whilst all this is going on, even if it is the usual empty rhetoric that emanates from DJM Tower is to be quite frank just extracting the urine. 

 

That's total speculation on your part. You don't know what information DJ's gathering and from whom. I've asked suppliers questions and waited weeks for an answer for various reasons.

 

Just suppose, for a moment, that from past experience DJ expects answers within about a fortnight, add in a little wiggle room/breathing space...etc.

 

That said...

 

8 hours ago, Ravenser said:

This whole thing wouldn't have been set up if he meant to provide calm unemotional replies to questions. It's the equivalent of the unexpected press conference at which a shock statement is made, and the speaker simply leaves after it is stated no questions will be taken....

 

The overall approach that he's taken is unprofessional.

[Legend]

9 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

I fear he may have been playing games with this forum. "This is for my supporters, not those nasty trolls on the internet.." Or waiting to see who "leaked" the update on here. I also fear that if any DJM project fails it won't be his fault in any way - it'll be RMWeb wot done it. (And there will be some in the hobby very ready to agree)

 

 

Hadn’t thought of that . It could be a possibility. But  if it is it’s not exactly demonstrating a mature approach to business!  In any case it will only work if he turns up on May 17th or very shortly thereafter with the “I told you so” moment , which to me means first pressings from tooling and a firm timetable to completion. Even then I think I’d struggle to believe it.

[adb968008]

After the events so far, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if when DJ returns he announces the start of a whole new crowd funded project.

 

 

[wellseasoned]

Well, we haven't got long to wait for the anticipated response from D.J.   I have a feeling it will come as a shock and/or surprise to the many who have speculated over things since the "announcement"     So, we'll see.

[njee20]

I'm not sure anything he could do now would surprise me!

[Claude_Dreyfus]

7 minutes ago, njee20 said:

I'm not sure anything he could do now would surprise me!

 

* Bookmarks comment for future reference when Dave has his 'tadaa' moment...maybe...

[Zunnan]

The only thing that would surprise me is 'Project XxxX is complete and the models are on the boat'.

[chris p bacon]

Just now, Zunnan said:

The only thing that would surprise me is 'Project XxxX is complete and the models are on the boat'.

 

I think I just saw an Elephant fly by the office window...

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, wellseasoned said:

Well, we haven't got long to wait for the anticipated response from D.J.   I have a feeling it will come as a shock and/or surprise to the many who have speculated over things since the "announcement"     So, we'll see.

 

He hasn't promised a response. He's put a "gone fishing till May 17th" sign on the door. Not the same thing

 

It's pure speculation here that "Dave Jones must give answers after 17th May" . It's entirely possible he will say nothing more about his business for  weeks or months . The only obvious "response" that  might be seen in the coming weeks is the dispatch  of invoices for the second instalment of crowd-funding on the 92 and APT-P 

 

Unless you have some kind of inside information, or are anticipating some kind of move by DJM against this forum and its members for discussing his statements in the present thread? (That would indeed be "trolling the forum" with his statements.)

 

We should also note whether any of the magazines refer to the Statement - which DJM say they have sent to them. Since the Statement appears to signal serious disputes with several parties who take substantial amounts of advertising in the magazines and to do it in acrimonious terms, I suspect not. I'm struggling to see how you summarise the Statement and  Clarification and manage not to refer to the contentious bits. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Ravenser

[njee20]

People definitely do seem to have read too much into his message.

He's just gone away. Possibly because he's frustrated at how this has gone and just wants a few days reprieve before dealing with the fall out, possibly to take a long hard look at the state of his business, possibly to go to China and try and get the definitive update on all his projects, possibly to put all of his crowdfunders money on black at a Vegas casino. All he said is that he will try and answer some questions when he's back.

[The Stationmaster]

36 minutes ago, njee20 said:

People definitely do seem to have read too much into his message.

He's just gone away. Possibly because he's frustrated at how this has gone and just wants a few days reprieve before dealing with the fall out, possibly to take a long hard look at the state of his business, possibly to go to China and try and get the definitive update on all his projects, possibly to put all of his crowdfunders money on black at a Vegas casino. All he said is that he will try and answer some questions when he's back.

Simple really - all he posted was 'I'm out of the office until ...'   Simple statement of fact and nothing else, no hints about anything good, bad, indifferent, relevant, or irrelevant  but basically a 'don't bother to try contacting me as I won't be here' message.   Just the sort of thing some of us would do when we popped off on holiday etc or took a break, or were away on business or whatever - and in this case we don't have a clue what the 'whatever' is so it's pointless to speculate about it.