DJ Models Announcement 01/05/19

[66738]

What gets me is how poorly the announcement was worded. This wasn’t just a off the cuff drunken tirade on a Saturday night. It was planned well in advance. How did he get it so wrong that he had to do a follow up to clarify. After a few reads I sort of understood it but for some, and I can see how it came across, it spelled out disaster for the Hobby. 

The clarification made it clear to all today, but It was too late. The damage was done, and that will be costly for Dave, just when he could Ill afford it not to be. He would have been better saying nowt at all.

66738

[37505bstp]

to dispell any hopes that refunds will be made against Class 92 N gauge model I offer the following communication from Mr Jones.

 

"Meanwhile i have to point out that the project is crowdfunded and as such all monies spent have been invested as per the ethos of the crowdfunding operation. Where customers sign up, pay a deposit and that then gets invested in the project. This i have done, and there is currently no monies in the bank until i ask for the tooling monies in a few weeks. I have not hidden away, been quiet on the situations or hat the monies from customers was for. 

 

I have also updated my web site and , until recently, forums, with updates on the situation, the factory move, cad/cam designs etc, and the press have also had press releases along with DEMU and the N gauge society magazine.

 

I hope this clarifies where the money has gone, and why, and that you are part of the crowdfunding for the model, which is now very close to tangible, visual progress."

 

Presumably this applies to the OO version as well due to the fact it also has been through the 'factory' saga.

 

To clarify I received this 1st January with to quote "now very closet tangible, visual progress" it's now May - 4 months have elapsed and even allowing for Chinese New Year - no advised progress, he hasn't even called for the second instalment. An out an out mis-statement as per usual.

 

APT wise I do not know the refund situation as the N version failed to gain the numbers but even if it had I was not going to commit, but all he has done is CAD which he has repeatedly stated is cheap so I would summise that he would have to prove that it was all gone and where.

 

Yes I have lost deposits for a few of these models, I am grown up enough to have known the risk, that risk has gone bad so no more funds will be going to Mr Jones I have written my deposits off to experience.

 

Does this put me off crowdfunding - overall no but it does make me more careful - I supported the Pendolino and IZA's, for the former it was a long wait but communication was good and I have at the end of the day received many real and excellent models from the crowd-funder - I now await Sturgeons, KFA's, HOAs and car carriers yes its still a risk but one I am comfortable with as they have a proven history of delivering on what they say they will.

 

The n gauge market is small, crowdfunding is only supported by some of the n gauge market proven by the fact that all crowd-funders have sometimes struggled for sponsors to get projects going .

 

Over the last 2 days DJM's behaviour appears to have alienated a fair proportion of his existing customers including me, god knows how many potential customers he has put off, or how  the retailers that have arrangements with DJM now perceive this farce, he may survive this or he may not but he has undoubtably just made it a whole lot harder for himself.

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by 37505bstp
spelling

[imt]

2 minutes ago, 66738 said:

What gets me is how poorly the announcement was worded. This wasn’t just a off the cuff drunken tirade on a Saturday night. It was planned well in advance. How did he get it so wrong that he had to do a follow up to clarify. After a few reads I sort of understood it but for some, and I can see how it came across, it spelled out disaster for the Hobby. 

The clarification made it clear to all today, but It was too late. The damage was done, and that will be costly for Dave, just when he could Ill afford it not to be. He would have been better saying nowt at all.

66738

 

Yes indeed.  And why his letterbox (NOT email inbox) should be stuffed full by his concerned customers asking (quite reasonably in my view) for progress statements and forward plans.  The amount of speculation and general hot air which is around at the moment is merely obscuring the fact that many customers have been dilatory in holding DJ Models to their forecasts and somehow thinking that all will be right on the night.

 

These unfortunate "press releases" have stirred up a hornets nest. It seems that DJ Models have been remiss (or cavalier) in keeping their "investors" informed.  The ONLY way this can be clarified is for DJ Models to get a grip of the situation and make clear statements on all the projects they have under way which are "crowd funded" or they have accepted pre-orders for. 

[Guest Mancunian]

Perhaps those that can put a stop to all this, should..?    Should the original message have been allowed without prior thought and/or consultation..?

 

So much for media sensationalism!

[Ravenser]

1 minute ago, Mancunian said:

Perhaps those that can put a stop to all this, should..?    Should the original message have been allowed without prior thought and/or consultation..?

 

So much for media sensationalism!

 

You mean the DJM "announcement of an announcement", the DJM "Statement" and the DJM "Clarification"? 

[John M Upton]

Any statement regarding potential legal proceedings and associated actions should be issued by a legal representative and carefully worded.

 

This seems little more than a paranoia fuelled rambling tirade randomly typed up whilst under the influence of a significant quantity of fine brandy to me...

[melmerby]

5 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

 under the influence of a significant quantity of fine brandy to me...

So that's where the money went?

[meatloaf]

Send any letters direct to his house, the address is on the pages where he has IP'd his products.

 

https://www.registered-design.service.gov.uk/find/6043484

Edited May 2, 2019 by meatloaf

[njee20]

To be fair (I think...) all of Dave’s mails are terribly spelt, full of irrelevant remarks and littered with errors, that’s nothing new. 

 

I’m a huge stickler for such things, and on the one hand I think “well I want him to deliver model trains,  not write a perfect email”. But then another part of me thinks “if he can’t even proof read a press release (or get someone else to) what else is he missing?!”.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, meatloaf said:

Send any letters direct to his house, the address is on the pages where he has IP'd his products.

The address detail and detail of the company's sole officer are readily available from Companies House on this page -

 

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08601496

Edited May 2, 2019 by The Stationmaster
correct typo

[caradoc]

6 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Not exactly a contradiction. But nor does it clarify anything very much.

 

What does he mean by "design cues"? Surely that comes from the original locomotive's design. There are only so many ways of reproducing that effectively - and none of them particularly original to DJ that I can see.

 

I don't know what he means by 'design cues' either, but the snooker is on TV just now, maybe something to do with that ?

 

I like however Mr Jones referencing Corporal Jones; Is this a Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde situation ?

 

[GWR-fan]

If I was a crowdfunder then I would be miffed to think that a portion of the money I have "invested" has gone not to getting my model manufactured but has been spent on lawyers and design/patent clerks to register the design of the model that I have funded and yet I have no ownership of that design.   Is the crowdfunding model he has used merely to develop a range of designs he has protected for his own benefit?    Perhaps his time should have been more wisely spent in delivering on his promises to develop and manufacture a model,  not just a design.   It does seem that once again Dave has embroiled himself in a crowd funding controversy and once again increasing the number of sceptics who at one time would have totally supported him.  

 

The intent I believed was to crowd fund a specific number of items based on the number of "investors" who participated prior the cut off date.  Is Dave registering his designs to protect future production runs?  If so then should not the original crowd funders receive royalties for any future production as it was their capital that funded the project.

[PhilH]

15 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

If I was a crowdfunder then I would be miffed to think that a portion of the money I have "invested" has gone not to getting my model manufactured but has been spent on lawyers and design/patent clerks to register the design of the model that I have funded and yet I have no ownership of that design.   Is the crowdfunding model he has used merely to develop a range of designs he has protected for his own benefit?    Perhaps his time should have been more wisely spent in delivering on his promises to develop and manufacture a model,  not just a design.   It does seem that once again Dave has embroiled himself in a crowd funding controversy and once again increasing the number of sceptics who at one time would have totally supported him.  

 

The intent I believed was to crowd fund a specific number of items based on the number of "investors" who participated prior the cut off date.  Is Dave registering his designs to protect future production runs?  If so then should not the original crowd funders receive royalties for any future production as it was their capital that funded the project.

 

I really don't understand crowdfunding.. if money is given in good faith for the furtherance of a particular project, then surely that money should be for that and that alone. 

Or does it just become a pot of money for the crowdfundee (?) to spend as they please on anything that takes their fancy? That can't be right/ legal can it?

Edited May 2, 2019 by PhilH

[TravisM]

As I paid my deposit with a credit card, do you think I should contact them regarding a possible return of my deposit?  It was only £30, not much in the great scheme of things but I’m really more miffed about the dire lack of information issued by DJ Models.

[Steamport Southport]

8 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

If I was a crowdfunder then I would be miffed to think that a portion of the money I have "invested" has gone not to getting my model manufactured but has been spent on lawyers and design/patent clerks to register the design of the model that I have funded and yet I have no ownership of that design.   Is the crowdfunding model he has used merely to develop a range of designs he has protected for his own benefit?    Perhaps his time should have been more wisely spent in delivering on his promises to develop and manufacture a model,  not just a design.   It does seem that once again Dave has embroiled himself in a crowd funding controversy and once again increasing the number of sceptics who at one time would have totally supported him.  

 

The intent I believed was to crowd fund a specific number of items based on the number of "investors" who participated prior the cut off date.  Is Dave registering his designs to protect future production runs?  If so then should not the original crowd funders receive royalties for any future production as it was their capital that funded the project.

 

I'm afraid crowdfunding doesn't work like that.

 

I've not crowdfunded any models but I have music. Do I expect to have a share in rights of that music? No. But I expect to receive my copy of the CD or whatever I have funded, depending on the deal I signed up for. Usually you get a free T shirt or something as well. Or your name in the sleeve notes.

 

 

Jason

[Markwj]

Just read the clarification and if he had just posted that last night without all the other guff it would have made more sense what he was getting at and not caused the uproar it did. He is just protecting his own models and mounds which is fine. For gods sake he really needs a sensible business partner!

[Roy L S]

1 hour ago, 37505bstp said:

to dispell any hopes that refunds will be made against Class 92 N gauge model I offer the following communication from Mr Jones.

 

"Meanwhile i have to point out that the project is crowdfunded and as such all monies spent have been invested as per the ethos of the crowdfunding operation. Where customers sign up, pay a deposit and that then gets invested in the project. This i have done, and there is currently no monies in the bank until i ask for the tooling monies in a few weeks. I have not hidden away, been quiet on the situations or hat the monies from customers was for. 

 

I have also updated my web site and , until recently, forums, with updates on the situation, the factory move, cad/cam designs etc, and the press have also had press releases along with DEMU and the N gauge society magazine.

 

I hope this clarifies where the money has gone, and why, and that you are part of the crowdfunding for the model, which is now very close to tangible, visual progress."

 

Presumably this applies to the OO version as well due to the fact it also has been through the 'factory' saga.

 

To clarify I received this 1st January with to quote "now very closet tangible, visual progress" it's now May - 4 months have elapsed and even allowing for Chinese New Year - no advised progress, he hasn't even called for the second instalment. An out an out mis-statement as per usual.

 

APT wise I do not know the refund situation as the N version failed to gain the numbers but even if it had I was not going to commit, but all he has done is CAD which he has repeatedly stated is cheap so I would summise that he would have to prove that it was all gone and where.

 

Yes I have lost deposits for a few of these models, I am grown up enough to have known the risk, that risk has gone bad so no more funds will be going to Mr Jones I have written my deposits off to experience.

 

Does this put me off crowdfunding - overall no but it does make me more careful - I supported the Pendolino and IZA's, for the former it was a long wait but communication was good and I have at the end of the day received many real and excellent models from the crowd-funder - I now await Sturgeons, KFA's, HOAs and car carriers yes its still a risk but one I am comfortable with as they have a proven history of delivering on what they say they will.

 

The n gauge market is small, crowdfunding is only supported by some of the n gauge market proven by the fact that all crowd-funders have sometimes struggled for sponsors to get projects going .

 

Over the last 2 days DJM's behaviour appears to have alienated a fair proportion of his existing customers including me, god knows how many potential customers he has put off, or how  the retailers that have arrangements with DJM now perceive this farce, he may survive this or he may not but he has undoubtably just made it a whole lot harder for himself.

 

 

Speaking generally I would think it entirely reasonable if there are questions, for crowd-funders to be able to ask for a breakdown of expenditure to date on any crowdfunded project they have an interest in, so as to be able to reconcile that to the funds paid in and to validate that the funds used in each case have indeed all been spent appropriately, including any remuneration if that was part of the agreement. Records should be kept by way of a clear audit-trail.

 

This is simply my opinion (as I cannot declare an interest in any DJM project that is currently funded) but for me, simply saying "it's all spent" as above really wouldn't be sufficient - how much has been spent and specifically what on would be my question. 

 

Others may of course differ and others again be satisfied with the answer given, and I respect that.

 

Roy

 

 

 

[GWR-fan]

I am wondering if Dave has a misunderstanding as to the ownership of "his" tooling.  Over the last fifteen or more years I have been  heavily involved in largescale model railroading and read a lot on the topic.  Typically,  a "manufacturer" would outsource/commission design and production to a Chinese manufacturer.  The Chinese manufacturer would contract to build X number of models but retain ownership of the design work and tooling.  The commissioning manufacturer simply owned the items that he had paid for,  nothing else.  He would have a contract with the Chinese manufacturer such that they would not manufacture further product for another commissioner for say a predetermined length of time giving the original commissioner rights to the design work and tooling,  but not ownership per se.

 

In one case a major American manufacturer did not have the capital to pay for items already produced and so the items remained locked in shipping containers in I believe Hong Kong for several years.  The American company participated in the design work but not the tooling which remained the property of the contracted manufacturer.  The company shut its doors with goods still languishing on the docks.  A revitalised company with a different name folded after a relative of the retiring company president failed to gather sufficient capital to purchase the majority of the stalled items held in storage.  Some of those items that were once commissioned are now being manufactured and sold by a major Chinese manufacturer known to us all who actually owns and manufactured the original tooling.

 

So basically does Dave actually "own" the tooling which he states that he cannot now access or did he merely have a contract to have the model items manufactured?

[37505bstp]

23 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

 

Speaking generally I would think it entirely reasonable if there are questions, for crowd-funders to be able to ask for a breakdown of expenditure to date on any crowdfunded project they have an interest in, so as to be able to reconcile that to the funds paid in and to validate that the funds used in each case have indeed all been spent appropriately, including any remuneration if that was part of the agreement. Records should be kept by way of a clear audit-trail.

 

This is simply my opinion (as I cannot declare an interest in any DJM project that is currently funded) but for me, simply saying "it's all spent" as above really wouldn't be sufficient - how much has been spent and specifically what on would be my question. 

 

Others may of course differ and others again be satisfied with the answer given, and I respect that.

 

Roy

 

 

 

 

My email extract is only one of several in getting Mr Jones to respond, initially ignored, then he's my mate, when he finally twigs that a refund is being asked for a somewhat a series of wooly diatribes and justification of what he has had to allocate our cash to but certainly no breakdown of it. It's the usual story the world in against him and he has in no way been responsible for or contributed to this.

 

I find him to be as I said your best mate if you are praising him or signing up - ask a genuine question that may put him on the spot and the tone soon polarises to brusqueness and evasive answers.

 

One poster suggested a formal recorded letter, I doubt that even this would elicit a professional response.

 

He is the only trader I deal with that cannot send emails to my address, they don't just bounce back, apparently my service refuses to accept them, I pointed out that his business is the only one of several that appears to have this issue with a BT address and that it was peculiar that the only emails I did receive were the invoices for the deposit.

[imt]

2 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

I am wondering if Dave has a misunderstanding as to the ownership of "his" tooling. 

 

Your wondering is quite alright by me, but if you don't have a financial interest in the matter why bother?  If you do - then ASK HIM to explain.  There is nothing in any of the above material that has any real basis in fact - it's all opinion and much of that ill informed.

 

Please can I repeat - and beg everybody to listen - if you have money invested then write and ask what he is about.  Write formally to him as director of DJ Models and require an answer.  You are entitled to know.

 

Write to his registered business address.

[imt]

9 minutes ago, 37505bstp said:

One poster suggested a formal recorded letter, I doubt that even this would elicit a professional response.

 

Well surely that will answer all your questions?  Since you don't know - ask. This is a quite reasonable approach.  He should be able to formally answer you.  If he does not or does not satisfy you with his explanations then you have real cause to be concerned and can consider your options (which may of course be few).

 

Please can I also stress that email is useless for this purpose, unless you have special technical arrangements, you can neither prove you sent it nor that he received it.

 

This is a serious matter and needs to be traceable if you ever wish to take it further at law.

Edited May 2, 2019 by imt

[GWR-fan]

6 minutes ago, imt said:

 

Your wondering is quite alright by me, but if you don't have a financial interest in the matter why bother?  If you do - then ASK HIM to explain.  There is nothing in any of the above material that has any real basis in fact - it's all opinion and much of that ill informed.

 

Please can I repeat - and beg everybody to listen - if you have money invested then write and ask what he is about.  Write formally to him as director of DJ Models and require an answer.  You are entitled to know.

 

Write to his registered business address.

 

I do not have a current financial interest but fail to see why only those who actually have a financial interest should "bother" in the matter.    Dave is a manufacturer and as such I may have in the future a desire to purchase items from him and so have an interest in having the manner in which he carries out his business fully understood so that I may have confidence in future purchases from him.  As Dave is tardy in answering questions from financial customers regarding the status of production of items then I hardly see him being responsive to questions regarding his business practices.  

 

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

I’m happy to accept that there has been a breakdown in the relationship between DJM and the factory, but why it broke down is something we just don’t know. I see three possibilities:

 

• The factory behaved in a way which justifies the mud DJ has thrown;
• The factory acted correctly and is being unfairly maligned; or
• Both parties were at fault.

 

How do we know that the factory has not got a valid claim to the moulds they hold? It’s not impossible that the factory is the aggrieved party and that they are just trying to recover losses. There is no evidence to support that, but there is just as much evidence for it as there is for the DJM version of events meaning that we have no idea what truly happened. Are there dodgy companies in China? Yes, but guess what, there are cowboy company’s in every country. I really found it all, and the apparent propensity of some to have swallowed a partisan version of events based on an assumption that those little chaps from the East must be bad eggs to be rather objectionable.

Don’t forget that some of us received emails, posts etc of the Chinese factories claims and their desired outcomes.

Though for obvious reasons the content isn’t something that is recommended to be shared.

Its best to take it on merit...

 

Earlier in the post it was suggested you can recognise a Bachmann from a Hornby... it’s more than that... can you recognise specific factories... I have Proto 2000 locos running with identical class 50 spares, useful as proto 2000 spares are hard come by and Athearn spares in the UK are hard fought.

 

But When I look at this parts box... which is a Dapols and which is Kernows ?

Or the packaging...

In my mind, I could be wrong, but the DJ 71, Dapol 52, 22, 73 and Kernow D600 seem to be from the same factory, based on more than the box. Whilst Dave cries fowl about customers going direct to China, you have to remember where DJ worked before himself. Someone leaked the Chinese supplier genie out of the bottle that allowed UK commissioners to go direct ?

 

indeed they aren’t secret... I can list many off the top of my head.. SKmode, Shinedew, Shenzhen Mould, Regalway, Nanjing Artko, Rolland Industrial, Hobbyriver tech, even parts companies like Dakunla  (wheels),  plus the likes of Kader, Piko, Oxford and Rapido... and I’m not a commissioner... to think you can’t find a manufacturer on the Internet in 2019 is a bit naive, they all speak English, have websites and their staff are on linked in... indeed two years back an engineer in China (3rd level from my profile) had CAD pictures of a UK outline model on his LinkedIn page, which kind of told me what was coming down the pipeline for that manufacturer.

Edited May 2, 2019 by adb968008

[Edwardian]

I used to get near beaten to death whenever I was less than enthusiastic about this manufacturer. Now it appears to be open season on DJ Models.

 

I could almost feel sorry for it.

 

Almost.

 

[37505bstp]

hello IMT and thanks for your advice you appear to have more knowledge in the law than most of us on here.

 

At the present I am calmly resigned to writing off my 'investment' with DJM.

 

I take on board that if I want to take this to law that the formal letter advice is the soundest way to proceed but I am not at that stage yet and I believe that it will either be ignored or get just more of the same vagueness in reply from DJM. I have considered dropping a line to Trading Standards to see what they think in general as the way this is progressing it seems unreal.

 

In addition to my earlier DJM extract when asked for a refund see below.

 

He was still my mate on 31st December when I received this

 

 

"Your decision to cancel your order when the model is about to go into tooling is a dissapointing one, and leaves a very large problem in the fact that your crowdfunded monies have been spent on the models development in line with the crowdfunding principal.

for instance, 3d cad/cams, 3d printing, advertising, decoder purchases for testing, field trips to double check measurements etc and dont forget the VAT that has had to be sent to HMRC as well, totalling £30 of your investment total alone.

As you know this is a crowdfunded model, and as such all monies are spent this way, once milestones are reached i ask for second and third deposits to allow for tooling, and production of said models."

 

Kindest regards

Dave

Edited May 2, 2019 by 37505bstp