DJ Models Announcement 01/05/19

[GWR-fan]

Almost 110,000 views and most responses not too complimentary as to the business model does make one wonder.  One thing the announcement of an announcement has revealed is the history of the company in its ambitious production wishes and its seeming inability to release a project in a timely manner.  Production it seems becomes a reality when the original commissioner of the project takes inhouse control.  There does seem to be an extraordinary amount of bad luck besetting the company's schedule,  something that does not seem to affect those who take back a project.

 

Criticism and cynicism become acceptable when promises are not able to be kept and production schedules seem to extend into the nether land.  The criticism is met by restricting any information to those directly involved in funding the project,  further increasing the "interest" of those on the outside.

 

The "threat" of possible legal action must be considered a possibility or else the announcement makes little sense.  If it was merely a big stick waving threat then it has failed as it has extended the issue beyond a simple legal tangle between several parties to a debate on the future of the company.  If it was simply protecting the company's IP rights then why was the announcement made public?  Was the intent to scare off potential purchasers of a "rival" company's similar product?  If their is a possible legal dispute then it is between the company and those who the company believes has infringed its rights.  It is not something that technically we the public need to know.  The company has opened a can of worms in its announcement exposing it to scrutiny,  something it wished to hide in last years restriction of information to only those directly involved in projects.

 

 Let us hope that the next announcement is well thought out as in reality the credibility of the company depends on it.  If it is simply more rhetoric about one's perceived legal rights then potential customers will walk away.  The purpose of the company was to produce quality models and yet over the years the actual output has been extremely small considering the overly ambitious wishlist of possible projects.

Edited May 11, 2019 by GWR-fan
Additional word

[Covkid]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

That's why I think he should make a clear statement it is not his intention, as it seems pretty obvious that he seemed to think his IP gave him a virtual monopoly for certain prototypes. The backlash we've seen against the announcement will pale into insignificance compared to what we'll see if he really does try and prevent Accurascale releasing their 92 or tries to ransom Kernow over the D6xx. At the moment I think it is fair to say DJM have an image problem and some of their crowd funded projects are at risk if customers lose all confidence in the brand and walk away. If he goes ahead and does try to shakedown other companies then the image of DJM really will be toxic and the impact to future prospects will negate any short term gains that might be made and more. Not to mention the old truism that if you are thinking of making a threat then you have to be willing to follow through otherwise you just become a laughing stock when the bluff is called. If he wants to go down the legal route it is for him to initiate action and defend his claim to IP, that means bills, risk and maybe falling flat. Is a company that has been forced to rely on crowd funding really in a position to go down that route? If they do then I think whatever hope there is of turning the business around will be flushed down the pan.

 

The problem is we armchair folk don't know the complete story about the D6xx. There have been rumours circulate that Dave Jones was involved in the initial stages of the offered model.  After all the D63xx produced by Dapol presumably had some Dave Jones design input, and I particularly like my model. The progress of the model seemed glacial for a long time, then Kernow seem to acquire renewed vigour and it is now here in the shops.

 

There was some talk flying around last year that Fred Phipps who produces his gauge 1 and gauge 3 NBL models was involved, even to the extent that Fred produced much of the design work - pure rumour though unless anyone can substantiate it. If true I wonder how Dave's IP announcement actually stacks up.

 

I imagine KMRC will be onsiderably aloof from this thread so it may well remain rumour and mystery, unless of course we see a date booked for a courtroom.       

[jjb1970]

6 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

The problem is we armchair folk don't know the complete story about the D6xx. There have been rumours circulate that Dave Jones was involved in the initial stages of the offered model.  After all the D63xx produced by Dapol presumably had some Dave Jones design input, and I particularly like my model. The progress of the model seemed glacial for a long time, then Kernow seem to acquire renewed vigour and it is now here in the shops.

 

There was some talk flying around last year that Fred Phipps who produces his gauge 1 and gauge 3 NBL models was involved, even to the extent that Fred produced much of the design work - pure rumour though unless anyone can substantiate it. If true I wonder how Dave's IP announcement actually stacks up.

 

I imagine KMRC will be onsiderably aloof from this thread so it may well remain rumour and mystery, unless of course we see a date booked for a courtroom.       

 

It's a matter of record that DJM was involved earlier in the project. It originally started with Dapol working for Kernow. One of the aspects of Dave Jones self serving and self pitying propaganda about how he has been hard done by, broken hand shakes etc which has received limited comment is that he seemed to take quite a bit of Dapol work with him when he set up DJM. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander and all that. At the time, because there was nothing to scan and because of limited info they paid for a professional modeller (I'm not sure if it was Fred Phipps, but it may well have been) to produce a master which could then be used by the factory to develop their tooling. One of the reasons Kernow dumped Dapol was apparently slow progress, coincidentally Dave Jones worked for Dapol at the time Dapol didn't appear to be doing much. Why Kernow took their projects in house and parted ways with Dave Jones has never been made public but I'm guessing glacially slow progress on projects like the D6xx will have been a consideration, and of course there was the Class 74 debacle which ended up in Kernow losing money as a result of the project going nowhere while they were sitting on peoples deposits.

 

I think the bit of the story that would clarify things greatly if it was to enter the public domain is the reason for the breakdown between DJM and factories and the status of the design work and tooling done by the factories for DJM. Despite the various allegations thrown around we have only been given one side of events, that being the side from one party to the dispute.

[Oldddudders]

I am confident we will only ever hear the DJM side of things. His former clients are far too canny to go public. Elsewhere we know there is a dispute between a major manufacturer and a leading box-shifter, but neither party has breathed a word on this forum - why would they?

[jjb1970]

I think that other parties have the professionalism to refrain from slinging mud and airing dirty washing in public. One of the things about the huge world we live in is that it is actually a collection of much smaller worlds where people and businesses know each other. I suspect that everyone else in the business has been viewing the announcement with a mix of amusement, pity, schadenfreude and anger at what DJM want to do but probably not taking any of it particularly seriously. I suspect those that should know the other side of the factory story already know it. 

[TEAMYAKIMA]

I have absolutely no axe to grind as to DJM as I don't model British any more, but having tread his initial statement I am reminded of the Labour party's election manifesto when Michael foot was leader which was described as 'the longest suicide note in history' - it appears there may now be another contender for that title.

[GWR-fan]

One should really read back over the APT thread, particularly mid-year 2018.    The following is a signature from one of Dave's postings (perhaps it is on all his APT postings)?

 

Quote:  "

Please note this is a DJM crowdfunding project and DJM will be invoicing, designing, and finally supplying the finished model and is therefore totally responsible for your investment.

Also: Please Note: Any 'pure' crowdfunding venture is an investment with no guarantee of return, and your invested capital (deposit payments) are at risk. Please consider carefully whether you wish to partake in this venture before ordering."  End quote.

 

It would seem self explanatory - no refunds!!!!!!!!

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

It's a matter of record that DJM was involved earlier in the project. It originally started with Dapol working for Kernow. One of the aspects of Dave Jones self serving and self pitying propaganda about how he has been hard done by, broken hand shakes etc which has received limited comment is that he seemed to take quite a bit of Dapol work with him when he set up DJM. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander and all that. At the time, because there was nothing to scan and because of limited info they paid for a professional modeller (I'm not sure if it was Fred Phipps, but it may well have been) to produce a master which could then be used by the factory to develop their tooling. One of the reasons Kernow dumped Dapol was apparently slow progress, coincidentally Dave Jones worked for Dapol at the time Dapol didn't appear to be doing much. Why Kernow took their projects in house and parted ways with Dave Jones has never been made public but I'm guessing glacially slow progress on projects like the D6xx will have been a consideration, and of course there was the Class 74 debacle which ended up in Kernow losing money as a result of the project going nowhere while they were sitting on peoples deposits.

 

I think the bit of the story that would clarify things greatly if it was to enter the public domain is the reason for the breakdown between DJM and factories and the status of the design work and tooling done by the factories for DJM. Despite the various allegations thrown around we have only been given one side of events, that being the side from one party to the dispute.

The relevant part of the D6XX story has already been posted in this thread by AY Mod.  Because of lack of progress Kernow (not DJM) commissioned a large scale model and that was sent to China for the factory to use it as the base from which to draw the CADs.  The factory in China drew the CADs from that model.

 

At some stage in the project Kernow took over control of it from DJM - we have never been told the reasons for that but it is interesting to note that at that point the pace of development and move on to production quickened and the model has actually appeared.  Some folk might not know that the model has come from the same factory which, I understand - and for whatever reason - ceased to progress various DJM own account models including, I have heard, the Class 92.  Said factory has also produced, seemingly without problems, models for other UK based customers.   So far as I'm aware the reason why there was some sort of split or whatever with DJM has never been made public by the factory and probably never will be.

[John M Upton]

20 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

It would seem self explanatory - no refunds!!!!!!!!

 

However, that does not mean that the Crowdfunders have the right to know where their money has been spent. 

 

Full accountability is essential I feel.

[MGR Hooper!]

DJM has to probably figure out how to run a crowdfunded first...

 

By the looks of it, he has absolutely no idea how to and has no respect for people's hard earned money.

 

I feel terrible for those who lost money because DJM decided to spend the money. He could've done a lot better like the others. Too quick and too boastful. The results of this is now panning out infront of us.

[spamcan61]

26 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

 

 

It would seem self explanatory - no refunds!!!!!!!!

 

 

It would be interesting to see that tested in court, supplier T&Cs cannot overrule your statutory rights. Is there even a legal definition of "crowdfund" I wonder.

 

If I put down a deposit on a new car before it's built I'm not crowdfunding it.

Edited May 12, 2019 by spamcan61
.

[chris p bacon]

2 minutes ago, MGR Hooper! said:

DJM has to probably figure out how to run a crowdfunded first...

 

By the looks of it, he has absolutely no idea how to and has no respect for people's hard earned money.

 

I feel terrible for those who lost money because DJM decided to spend the money. He could've done a lot better like the others. Too quick and too boastful. The results of this is now panning out infront of us.

 

Can you just reign it in a bit, It's obvious to all and sundry that DJM has not covered himself in glory but it's starting to look like you keep going back to kick someone when they're down.

 

He may very well respect and appreciate that it's others peoples money, but as they took the risk to invest in the schemes he's used it for the intended purpose, although I think he jumped the gun on starting the processes before he'd actually secured the full financing.

 

I'd even venture to suggest that some were a bit too keen to hand their money over without considering the risks involved, to the point of shooting anyone that questioned the funding or accusing them of trolling DJM.  

[GWR-fan]

In the signature that I quoted above Dave has stated the following,    Quote:  "........DJM will be invoicing, designing, and finally supplying the finished model and is therefore totally responsible for your investment....."

 

When I read this statement I begin to have different interpretations as to the meaning of "totally responsible".  Does he state that DJM alone is responsible for the project from a legal point of view as regards to supplying the item (no third party) or is DJM stating that DJM and no other company is financially involved in the project so any crowdfunding is with DJM as an LLC?   Responsible as a word can have multiple meanings.  Does the statement absolve him personally from any legal claim for a refund if a crowd funded project does not proceed? 

[Pteremy]

But it does seem clear that we are talking about a different sort of contract to a retail sale and purchase, one in which your money paid up front is at risk. Equally it would seem reasonable, if not essential, that, as a consequence, those 'with skin in the game' have transparency about the use of the money that they have contributed to the project.

 

Is DJM a one man band? Whilst successfully manufacturing, marketing and selling model railway locomotives may not require rocket science/engineering it does require a range of skill sets. These are more likely to be found in a team of people rather than one individual.  

[Fenman]

48 minutes ago, MGR Hooper! said:

... has no respect for people's hard earned money.

...

 

Things are getting a bit repetitive after 48 pages, so (and writing as someone who stands to lose some cash if/ when things go tits-up):

 

Why do you assume it's all "hard-earned"? Maybe one or more of us is a lazy-arse idler who does the minimum possible amount of work to avoid being fired, before bunking-off early to squander our money-for-old-rope?

 

These things are all value judgements. Reminds me of a delightful scene from the great Black Books, where his side-kicks return to find their boss has managed to get through a large lottery win in just a weekend. "Where did all the money go?!', they ask, appalled. "Well", he replies thoughtfully, "half of it went on booze and prostitutes. But the rest I just wasted".

 

Paul

[GWR-fan]

51 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

It would be interesting to see that tested in court, supplier T&Cs cannot overrule your statutory rights. Is there even a legal definition of "crowdfund" I wonder.

 

If I put down a deposit on a new car before it's built I'm not crowdfunding it.

 

I posted a similar response to this on the class 92 thread.  This is my understanding.  When you make a deposit payment you are not actually purchasing the finished model.  What you are purchasing is a stage in the development of the model.  Thus if stage 1 is to develop the CAD then your payment is for the CAD only (not the finished model at some point in the future).  A second payment would be for say initial tooling.  Thus if this tooling was completed then the company had fulfilled their part of the project and so on for the remaining stages.  It is only when the project is completed and the model released that your staged payments are  for the completed model.  At all stages your payment is simply for processes in the development and manufacture of the model.  It all seems like double Dutch but perhaps this is a "legal" way of circumventing normal statutory rights if a claim is made.

[57xx]

16 hours ago, njee20 said:

Yes, of course, but that’s not what Dave claimed,  he said it was existing modellers targeted to legitimise the orders or something. 

 

Edit: from page 20 of the OO gauge APT thread:

 

 

 

That just sounds like someone making a claim based on ignorance. Why would anyone go to the lengths of "hacking" multiple accounts when you can just spoof mail. I can send mails from whoever I want them to be, as long as the recipients mail system is not checking SPF or DKIM and doing anything about it, then they will be non the wiser (unless they don't think donald.trump@thewhitehouse.com is interested in buying an ATP)

[The Pilotman]

Ladbrokes are giving odds of 2/1 that this thread will hit 50 pages by midnight tonight. Worth a punt? 

[57xx]

2 minutes ago, Western Aviator said:

Ladbrokes are giving odds of 2/1 that this thread will hit 50 pages by midnight tonight. Worth a punt? 

 

Given the amounts of circles some people are going in repeating themselves and taking great joy at sticking the boot in...

[SHMD]

11 minutes ago, Western Aviator said:

Ladbrokes are giving odds of 2/1 that this thread will hit 50 pages by midnight tonight. Worth a punt? 

 

Seems like a better investment than some I've seen/been invited to!

 

 

Kev

 

[DavidH]

1 hour ago, GWR-fan said:

Does the statement absolve him personally from any legal claim for a refund if a crowd funded project does not proceed? 

 

DJ Models is a limited company.

[Great Western]

2 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

One should really read back over the APT thread, particularly mid-year 2018.    The following is a signature from one of Dave's postings (perhaps it is on all his APT postings)?

 

Quote:  "

Please note this is a DJM crowdfunding project and DJM will be invoicing, designing, and finally supplying the finished model and is therefore totally responsible for your investment.

Also: Please Note: Any 'pure' crowdfunding venture is an investment with no guarantee of return, and your invested capital (deposit payments) are at risk. Please consider carefully whether you wish to partake in this venture before ordering."  End quote.

 

It would seem self explanatory - no refunds!!!!!!!

 

 

 

A fool and his money are easily parted they say, pretty much a open cheque to potentially produce a model, or not with no come back if/when it doesn't happen.

 

That reminds me, I must remember to send my $1000 money transfer to that nice Nigerian Prince, for my $1,000,000 prize  !

Edited May 12, 2019 by Great Western

[Great Western]

13 minutes ago, DavidH said:

 

DJ Models is a limited company.

 

So if/when time is called a certain person can walk away with their personal finances unblemished ?

Potentially to set up another limited company and start all over again, cowboy builder style ? 

[Amand]

24 minutes ago, DavidH said:

 

DJ Models is a limited company.

 

Limited in its communicative skills or ability to produce the goods? 

[PMP]

54 minutes ago, Fenman said:

 

Why do you assume it's all "hard-earned"? Maybe one or more of us is a lazy-arse idler who does the minimum possible amount of work to avoid being fired, before bunking-off early to squander our money-for-old-rope?

 

The voice of reason prevails!