DJ Models Announcement 01/05/19

[truffy]

I suppose it's just possible that DJ is keeping quiet on railway modelling and business communications until he has clarity ca. 17 May. That doesn't preclude internet access and dalliance on other, unrelated forums.

 

Lack of clarity doesn't help people, but it's not necessarily a mark of nefarious intent. Just poor business acumen. And there are mightier business leaders with plenty of that.

[Barry Ten]

30 minutes ago, David Stannard said:

 

Also we already have 50 pages of tripe

 

 

Of which at least nine contributions are from David Stannard.

[David Stannard]

27 minutes ago, Darius43 said:

 

Granted that Dave has few defenders on this thread, however this is due in no small part to his having taken a lot of money from crowdfunders and then been less than communicative with them with respect to progress and where the money has gone.  This is increasingly stark contrast to some other new-entrants to the UK model railway manufacturing scene who would appear to have a much more professional approach to doing business.

 

Not all of this thread is "tripe" and if we are using that word then, in my opinion, it would apply equally well to DJM's original announcement.

 

Seek the battle; don't complain about the wounds.

 

Darius

 

 I agree that this whole sordid thread is due in large part to what I have even described myself as a rather unhinged announcement by the said person, that said many of the responses that have come out have connotations of some sort of financial impropriety. To make the comment that he has taken peoples money when it comes to the crowd funding implies that he has done a bunk with everyones dosh, we just can't go around accusing people of wrongdoing if we have no knowledge as to where the moneys gone, at the end of the day people committed funds towards these projects in good faith and I hope for them that they reach fruition. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by David Stannard

[David Stannard]

6 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

 

Of which at least nine contributions are from David Stannard.

 

 

Make that eleven, mind you there are plenty of others that have trown their two pence worth in as well.

[njee20]

15 minutes ago, truffy said:

I suppose it's just possible that DJ is keeping quiet on railway modelling and business communications until he has clarity ca. 17 May. That doesn't preclude internet access and dalliance on other, unrelated forums.

 

Lack of clarity doesn't help people, but it's not necessarily a mark of nefarious intent. Just poor business acumen. And there are mightier business leaders with plenty of that.

I'm not sure people are suggesting anything to the contrary, it just seems a highly dubious choice, when things are probably at their absolute worst, to say "right, that's it, I'm on me holibobs, will deal with this when I get back", but to continue having a visible profile elsewhere.

[Ravenser]

4 minutes ago, David Stannard said:

 

 I highly doubt that he will do that, given the extremely hostile mob of pitchfork and torch waiving villagers here he would be hung drawn and quartered by the online lynch mob at the first stoke of a keyboard. Also we already have 50 pages of tripe with an anouncement that wasn't announced here, the RMWEB server would collapse and their would not be enough storage space for the god knows how many pages of responses that would entail. 

 

 

I don't think Dave Jones is likely to give any response here (or anywhere else) - and I don't think he ever intended to . The "Out of Office" message signals that - if he is indeed on holiday , then it will have been booked long ago, and he would have deliberately scheduled the Statement for the day before he disappeared.

 

The way the Little Loco Company announcement has played out, and the way that thread has gone quiet since the proprietor commented suggests this might have played out differently if Dave Jones had appeared and made calm comment on here. But we should consider the possibility that this community is being trolled by all this:

 

DJM Announcement of an Announcement 28/4/19

Quote

To avoid speculation, as there are many nare do wells out there, that will try to spread gossip, slander and libel, i can say that the news is very interesting and exciting!

 

This is not exactly the language you use if you don't want to start a bunfight. It is possible the target is the members of this forum - the alternative would be that this is aimed at others in the "trade", which is even less palatable

 

The DJM Statement and Clarification are arguably the most extraordinary official communications from any significant party in the hobby since those in the Protofour/Scalefour schism in the mid 70s. They seem to attack anywhere from 4 to 9 significant parties who have dealt with Dave Jones. They set at least a dozen different hares running in various directions. To suggest that people shouldn't discuss any of this on here because it wasn't originally posted here is absurd.

 

If someone high-profile publishes a series of statements like this, trailed like this - and sends them to all the magazines - you can only conclude that that they are trying to make waves and start everyone talking. If the talk they provoke isn't quite the talk they'd hoped for , then that's their miscalculation. You can see from the start of the thread that people were expecting a positive product announcement - perhaps that the APT-P or 92 were going to tooling - and were shocked and stunned by what they actually read

 

Dave Jones clearly intended to be extremely provocative in multiple directions . To blame others because there's been a reaction - especially when some people have significant amounts of their money at stake is a little unreasonable

 

 

[Ravenser]

19 minutes ago, David Stannard said:

 

 To make the comment that he has taken peoples money when it comes to the crowd funding implies that he has done a bunk with everyones dosh, we just can't go around accusing people of wrongdoing if we have no knowledge as to where the moneys gone, at the end of the day people committed funds towards these projects in good faith and I hope for them that they reach fruition. 

 

Crowd-funding necessarily implies taking people's money - and promising them a model at the end.

 

The 92 project is nearly 3 years in , one installment has been taken, another has been threatened 3 times without actually happening, someone's money has been spent on lawyers and registrations which DJM have suggested will block competitors' projects , there's a competitor product  and Dave's original emails suggested that if the project did not succeed and the funds were spent there would be no refund. Throw in what you yourself describe as "an unhinged announcement" and a crisis of confidence among crowd-funders is well-nigh guaranteed

 

It's one thing if DJM were doing this with their own money. Nobody else would have anything at stake until the models were in the shops. But here the crowd-funders are putting up all the money. To suggest that discussion should not be happening and people shouldn't be asking questions  is to side too much with the "manufacturer" and protecting his interests, and too little with the "investors " whose cash he is using

 

At the end of the day , DJM is playing with other people's money, not his own , on  his crowd-funded projects

Edited May 13, 2019 by Ravenser

[Hal Nail]

39 minutes ago, truffy said:

it's not necessarily a mark of nefarious intent. Just poor business acumen. And there are mightier business leaders with plenty of that.

“Never ascribe to malice, that which can adequately be explained by incompetence”. Hanlon’s Razor.

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Dave, where are you? Are you going to explain/defend or is everyone free to draw their own conclusions based on your current silence?

 

1 hour ago, David Stannard said:

 

 I highly doubt that he will do that, given the extremely hostile mob of pitchfork and torch waiving villagers here 

 

Perhaps a press conference upon his return ...

 

[Colin_McLeod]

2 hours ago, Roy L S said:

Dave has from all accounts left an auto-reply on the DJM e-mail saying he won't be available until after the 17th. I haven't seen any further information, but I note from an earlier post on this thread that he has posted on another (non railway) forum so access to internet/connectivity wouldn't seem to be the issue. 

 

Roy

 

 

I have emailed him twice and got no auto reply.  Next move will be a letter sent to his registered office.

[PMP]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

someone's money has been spent on lawyers and registrations which DJM have suggested will block competitors' projects 

 

I can’t see any mention of using professional legal advice, in either the original release, or the clarification. The statements refer to discussions between DJ (himself), and the UK ip office. The registrations as has been mentioned in thread, do have a financial cost.

[njee20]

2 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

 

I have emailed him twice and got no auto reply.  Next move will be a letter sent to his registered office.

It's a post on his website here rather than an auto-reply on his email.

[wombatofludham]

The thread most definitely has not been tripe - if it had been Andy would have consigned the thread to virtual Siberia in a trice.  What started with Mr Jones having his Alan Partridge moment, generating a flurry of "What the..." responses, has, by and large, developed into an interesting, sometimes robust, other times informative discussion.  The histrionic initial announcement has clearly raised a widely held concern by those who were crowdfunding his projects about the lack of progress and information on them, which in turn has raised some discussion about the whole concept of crowdfunding, and the future direction of Mr Jones company.  That these matters are not related directly to the initial public flinging of dirty knickers over the interweb doesn't matter, they have a connection in that genuine concerns are being aired about a number of projects real enthusiasts have placed real money into in good faith, and when the MD and sole proprietor of said company then makes a strange and incoherent public rant about effectively how hard done by he has been, and how he's going to become the caped crusader saving the model railway industry from itself, which was the implied sub-text of his meltdown message, in the absence of any clear, authoritative updates as to the status of their de facto investment, I fully understand why some have made critical comments.

 

Yes some have piled in with critical comments based on having lodged some sort of VC10 sized wasp up their gusset about Mr Jones, others have been critical because they fear for their money placed with the man for crowdfunding schemes.  Some have adopted a patronising "I told you so" attitude to the concept of crowdfunding, others have pointed out it can work if the outfit promoting it are clear, efficient and good project managers.  Overall though it has been a well conducted debate, and frankly if you are one of those calling for it to be shut down or feel it is displaying the characteristics of the Circle Line, there is a simple answer.

Use the ignore button, or your scroll wheel on you mouse, and don't bother reading the thread.  If you are not interested, move onto other stuff.  I for one will continue to read the developments in this thread as even though I have never bought a DJM product nor have any crowdfunding invested with him, it has raised a number of issues that are of general interest and continue to develop.

As I said I'm sure Andy's big red button of oblivion would have been hit had this thread gone seriously off route.

[rab]

1 hour ago, PMP said:

 

I can’t see any mention of using professional legal advice, in either the original release, or the clarification. The statements refer to discussions between DJ (himself), and the UK ip office. The registrations as has been mentioned in thread, do have a financial cost.

Ukip - I thought politics wasn't allowed on this forum

 

(If it wasn't so warm I'd have the tin hat on and be running like mad)

[Edwardian]

50 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

if you are one of those calling for it to be shut down or feel it is displaying the characteristics of the Circle Line .....

 

 

Count yourselves lucky the announcement wasn't to announce bullhead OO gauge track.

 

Compared with the topic on that announcement, this announcement has barely generated a flicker of interest!

[AY Mod]

59 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

if it had been Andy would have consigned the thread to virtual Siberia in a trice.

 

Some posts with unsubstantiated or irrelevant criticism and personal insults have been removed.

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, PMP said:

 

I can’t see any mention of using professional legal advice, in either the original release, or the clarification. The statements refer to discussions between DJ (himself), and the UK ip office. The registrations as has been mentioned in thread, do have a financial cost.

 

For clarity's sake - there were a substantial number of postings early in the thread ( from a variety of posters but not by me) which essentially treated it as a given that DJM had registered designs after speaking with a clever lawyer who had put the idea into his head as a panacea against competition/duplication. That included a couple of people wondering aloud if crowd-funding had been spent on legal advice about the registrations

 

The idea of registering designs came from somewhere, and it's a novelty in model railway manufacturing. I agree that neither the Statement nor the Clarification state that professional legal advice had been taken on the matter.

 

On the other hand, one would have hoped that Dave Jones would have sought proper professional advice before releasing a public statement  explaining how his actions would work "if read correctly", and was basing his remarks on that advice. If he didn't, then this raises even more questions

 

It is one of the unfortunate features of this episode that the more you look at DJM's Statement and Clarification the more hares they start running. They are very much the (unwelcome) gift to the hobby that just keeps giving......

Edited May 13, 2019 by Ravenser

[Widnes Model Centre]

I have held off posting on here for a variety of reasons and being labelled as a "Naysayer".

 

Some of you will be aware that during the height of DJM's Accounts Fiasco, I had the intentions of approaching DJM as I live not that far from DJ. I was advised that that might not be one of my better ideas.

 

I decided to do my own due diligence before making my final decision.

 

I had read on here that Dave Jones had said the accounts were a mistake and that his accountant was rectifying the situation on that very day, even though it was a Saturday. He confirmed this had been done.

 

As part of my due diligence I approached Companies House and explained that I was interested in investing in this company, either my time or money. I was told that Dave Jones had contacted them that day and had requested more time to complete his accounts and he had been reluctantly given more time but that CH were not willing to allow any more.

 

That was the end of my willingness to offer help.

 

Where I feel really ill at ease is those who have parted with cash and are feeling under pressure from other crowdfunders to see various projects through. I can certainly see both sides points of view.

 

I can certainly see the points raised by posters on here in which they have consistenly, on previous posts and this one, aired concerns regarding events in the past 12 months and some more. I certainly don't believe they were having a go at DJM but were unwilling to sit idly while they and others were passing monies over amid growing concern.

 

A satifactory outcome to all this will see us all happy. It is entirely in DJM's hands.

[melmoth]

56 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

For clarity's sake - there were a substantial number of postings early in the thread ( from a variety of posters but not by me) which essentially treated it as a given that DJM had registered designs after speaking with a clever lawyer who had put the idea into his head as a panacea against competition/duplication. That included a couple of people wondering aloud if crowd-funding had been spent on legal advice about the registrations

 

The idea of registering designs came from somewhere, and it's a novelty in model railway manufacturing. I agree that neither the Statement nor the Clarification state that professional legal advice had been taken on the matter.

 

On the other hand, one would have hoped that Dave Jones would have sought proper professional advice before releasing a public statement  explaining how his actions would work "if read correctly", and was basing his remarks on that advice. If he didn't, then this raises even more questions

 

It is one of the unfortunate features of this episode that the more you look at DJM's Statement and Clarification the more hares they start running. They are very much the (unwelcome) gift to the hobby that just keeps giving......

 

A long time ago, in a distant galaxy (on about page 7 of this thread, IIRC), I said, somewhat flippantly, that no legal professionals had been harmed in the making of the DJM statement (or some such). Now, I am not a lawyer, but there are plenty of occasions in my life when I am never more than six feet away from one. I also run my own (very limited) business. The DJM statement is truly a thing of wonder; it has a car crash fascination far beyond its intrinsic points of reference. But I really do believe that no competent legal professional could have signed off on that statement, and if any legal advice was sought, DJM got hold of the wrong end of the stick, and are now clinging onto it for dear life.

[57xx]

5 hours ago, Darius43 said:

Not all of this thread is "tripe"

 

I'd say 95% tripe, 5% onion.

[PMP]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

For clarity's sake - there were a substantial number of postings early in the thread ( from a variety of posters but not by me) which essentially treated it as a given that DJM had registered designs after speaking with a clever lawyer 

 

Correct.

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

I agree that neither the Statement nor the Clarification state that professional legal advice had been taken on the matter.

 

 

Image then if the original press release had started,

’On/After taking legal advice DJM has ..’

[rab]

There is a simple answer for those who are calling for this thread to be locked; it's called the 'ignore' option

[darrel]

I paid the deposit for the class 92, I got an acknowledgement email. Since then nothing at all no updates zilch. 

Communication does not seem to be his strong point. 

[Pteremy]

Enough already.

 

Que Sera Sera......

[Widnes Model Centre]

6 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

Enough already.

 

Que Sera Sera......

 

Wrong Topic, suggest you search for the Doris Day Tribute page.

 

RIP Doris.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Widnes Model Centre