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British Railways Experimental Purple/Ultramarine


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Hello all, 

 

First time poster here. I am in the midst of repainting a Hornby King - 6009 'King Charles II of R3401 - into the purple livery which was experimentally worn after nationalisation. I am using some scans from Colour Rail (mostly BRW129, BRW1662 and BRW332 for those concerned) and a dash of artistic license when it comes to a few prototypical details on my base model of the King. I have, however, two queries: 

 

• Were the outside cylinder covers painted purple too, or were these kept black and lined out? I cannot be sure from online scans. 

 

• Which lining should I use? Research suggests it is LNWR/BR mixed-traffic lining which would be red on the inside, black and then white/cream on the outside (obviously different on boiler bands). I am looking at the mixed traffic lining at both Fox Transfers and HMRS but the thumbnails of the sheets appear to be ordered red, white and black instead. Is this just a trick of the online thumbnail or do I need to look for some specific lining suited to experimental purple? 

 

Thanks in advance, 

Henry

1556484332157.jpg

Edited by Henry 84F
Title typo!
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17 minutes ago, Henry 84F said:

Hello all, 

 

First time poster here. I am in the midst of repainting a Hornby King - 6009 'King Charles II of R3401 - into the purple livery which was experimentally worn after nationalisation.

 

1556484332157.jpg

 

Do you not think that you may have taken the description 'purple' a little too literally?

 

My impression, from contemporary illustrations, is of ultramarine with a hint of purple (in certain lights); perhaps https://www.markspaint.com/marks-paint-ultramarine-blue-semi-gloss-studio-color-gallon/ ?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited by cctransuk
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Welcome to RMweb

 

There's plenty of information/supposition here:

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=br+experimental+livery+king

 

The LNWR/BR lining also had a grey band (probably best ignored in 4mm scale!) and the black band was body colour. How this was interpreted with other body colours I don't know.

 

From descriptions, I would suggest ultramarine with a hint of red in the varnish, but again it's supposition.

 

In this photo the cylinders appear to be black. The blue smudge would seem to be a lens flare or similar in my opinion.

 

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rmweb.co.uk%2Fcommunity%2Fuploads%2Fmonthly_05_2018%2Fpost-22530-0-80159300-1526050729.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rmweb.co.uk%2Fcommunity%2Findex.php%3F%2Ftopic%2F124744-when-tt3-was-the-next-big-thing%2Fpage-28&docid=TYUecpGCu6942M&tbnid=g-ZrGsiWqbeI3M%3A&vet=10ahUKEwjcudSq1vThAhWlz4UKHYLZBAQQMwhFKAQwBA..i&w=1920&h=1094&client=firefox-b-d&bih=666&biw=1304&q=br experimental livery king&ved=0ahUKEwjcudSq1vThAhWlz4UKHYLZBAQQMwhFKAQwBA&iact=mrc&uact=8#h=1094&imgdii=g-ZrGsiWqbeI3M:&vet=10ahUKEwjcudSq1vThAhWlz4UKHYLZBAQQMwhFKAQwBA..i&w=1920

 

Sir Felix Pole is alleged to have said that he was glad to have gone blind as he was spared the sight of a 'King' in blue!

Edited by Il Grifone
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These photos are from ‘The Big Four in Colour’ which is an excellent book for reference. It has a few images of the immediate post nationalisation period.

Shows the livery with lettering and with crest, and what they looked like when a bit dirtier.

Also a pic of the A4 in a similar colour.

 

0108154B-39FE-4E86-A34D-75FFFFBC3AB2.jpeg

96AAF6A0-4618-4AAB-A838-1E4456EC8DD3.jpeg

9C14FB13-DF2D-4D3A-8877-A760C67CE7F1.jpeg

A12B4F2D-8BEC-4725-8D91-FC5BA1F46CC6.jpeg

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Good evening all,

 

Thanks for your replies and for alerting me to the paint discrepancy. I had been basing my shade on the experimental livery applied by Hornby to their A4s, but can see now (especially thanks to Corbs) that this lacks the blue undertones it needs. Luckily, I am barely two coats in so I will find the time to strip back and restart. Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I could sample a good rendition of the livery as an enamel paint, or do we think this is one that is best mixed myself?

 

Thanks,

Henry

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39 minutes ago, Henry 84F said:

Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I could sample a good rendition of the livery as an enamel paint, ............
 

 

In your position, I would at least start with https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/precisionrailway/nationalised ;

 

BR Steam Locomotive Dark Blue (1949 Experimental) - Post 1948 Colours - £3.85 .

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

 

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Interestingly, the wikipedia write-up on the colour ultramarine talks about two methods of making artificial ultramarine pigment, and says of one method ".....a red tinge often results.". So, it could be that a red/purple tone in the colour was inherent in the paint, rather than being a weathering affect.

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On 29/04/2019 at 22:21, cctransuk said:

 

In your position, I would at least start with https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/precisionrailway/nationalised ;

 

BR Steam Locomotive Dark Blue (1949 Experimental) - Post 1948 Colours - £3.85 .

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

 

 

Thanks for the suggestion, John. 

 

Does anyone have any experience with this paint? I have used Pheonix's post-1948 light blue before and it was much lighter than Hornby's rendition of BR subsequently-adopted express blue. Will this dark blue be a considerable difference from this? I hope to have the different, earlier experimental shade to the BR blue king I already have alongside this project.

 

Thanks all,

Henry

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I’m not sure it will actually add much to this debate, but this loco gives some idea of what a model maker in the early 1950s thought they were seeing on the real railway.

 

Of course, due allowance must be made for ageing, lighting (artificial, but daylight balanced), camera, and screen reproduction, but i’d put greater faith in this as a representation of ‘in service’ condition of 'Express Blue' than modern Hornby’s.

 

Bassett-Lowke 0 Gauge tinplate. Don’t try to find the prototype for this loco, there wasn’t one, but if you google around you should be able to find BL models of 'Flying Scotsman' in the same livery, but make sure that what you are looking at is 1950s BL, not modern production BL.

 

If I get time, I’ll photograph it in the sun tomorrow.

 

D2FB8C97-2483-4438-8521-3CB0F1584C54.jpeg

Edited by Nearholmer
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BR mixed traffic lined was based on LNWR lining. An outer pale grey line with a narrow cream line immediately inside that. Then a gap followed by a narrow red line. Boiler bands were painted black with a narrow red band on the outer edges.

 

Transfers from the usual suppliers don't reproduce the cream line (possibly too difficult to get the registration accurate) but AFAIK Ian Rathbone shows how to do it in his book on Panting and Lining. Fox produce lining strip and curves in grey, cream and red in .35 and .75mm widths (and other colours), so that might provide a way to recreate the lining.

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'evening all,

 

Many thanks for your replies and comments so far, especially concerning the lining. Inbetween stints of essay-writing today, the purple came off and a first coat of a revised impression of the livery went on. I feel this matches the images in Corbs' post some days ago, although my phone camera has picked out the purple a lot more than the naked eye does. The paint is blue, albeit with a metallic finish, so some light weathering will be in order to tame it upon completion. This is just a first coat and here it is against a Hornby BR Blue king for comparison. 

20190504_211123.jpg

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I am not clear whether the following is relevant. It is from "Southern Style. BR Southern region" - HMRS, 2018. It refers to the Southern Region and the heading of the section refers to "Experimental styles and the finalised lining in black and white":

experimental livery was not approved so the
locomotive was returned to Works for repainting on
2nd March 1949. The red lines, numbers and crests
were all painted out and replaced by two bands of
lining consisting of white/black/white in the former
upper and lower positions. The weak-looking, spread
out lining of the Apple green locomotives had been
noted and replaced by these solid, bold lines. The
black centre line was 1¼ in. wide and flanked by
white, each ¼ in. wide.

The loco concerned was 35024.

This may be a complete red herring, of course, as I do not know the date the King was painted.

Jonathan

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello again all,

 

I'll soon be picking this project back up. I'll be ordering some lining today. I have previously used Fox Transfers and have had no issues with them (in fact some very pleasing customer service), however I have heard some very positive things about HMRS' Pressfix transfers. Does anyone have any recommendations?

 

Thanks,

Henry

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I've used HMRS lining, back in the days when it was PC, and if I can line a loco (in this case a fully lined out green BR 1958 liveried Mainline 56xx; guess who brought out an RTR version 3 weeks after I'd finished...) with my fat clumsy little fingers you should have no problem.  Takes time and care, though.  I've also used Fox and CCT, both with very good results, but not for lining.  

 

A minor moan about HMRS compared to some other makes is that they seem to discolour on the sheet if you keep them a long time; the carrier film sort of yellows.  Maybe I'm storing them wrong and perhaps 30 odd years was a big ask...

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They also can lose their tackiness over the years, but can then be applied in the same way as Methfix, though I must admit that i have never had problems even with 20 year old transfers.

Caveat - i have rarely used the lining transfers.

Jonathan

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Last August I did some research at the NRM on BR locomotive colours and they have sample card which I would describe as a medium sapphire blue and is much the same colour as SNG was painted in during its last boiler ticket.

Regards

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks for your help so far, all,

 

Can't admit to being too taken with the pressfix lining; very fiddly, very little room for error and inconsistent gaps between the cream and red lines. The early emblem and lettering, however, seem a lot crisper than waterslide competitors so in the future I'll be picking and choosing. 

 

The paint works well. Seeming to be blue with shades of purple depending on the angle it's viewed and the way the light catches it (see attached photo). I've completed it with lettering one side to represent how the experimental livery mostly looked and with the early emblem on the other as per 6009 in its last six months before repaint into standard BR blue.

 

 

 

 

1560007157425.jpg

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As good as done (aside from cabside numberplates, a smokebox numberplate, new door darts, varnishing, weathering and detailing - so not really done at all then), but very happy with this one; definetly some learning curves. Now I just need somewhere to run it since I've no layout after moving to South Yorkshire. Seen here with a currently-immaculate BR blue king which I think shows the difference in the liveries quite well.

 

Henry

 

 

1560085979565.jpg

Edited by Henry 84F
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Hi,

A couple of years ago I built and painted a kit into Duchess of Atholl in experimental BR Blue - the chap who commissioned the job was an elderly man who actually remembered seeing the loco as a lad at Carlisle.  It took quite a lot of research but the chap was enormously knowledgeable about the class, the colour scheme and lining.  

 

Anyway here are a couple of photos of the finished rendition which he was absolutely over the moon with and reckoned it was exactly as he remembered it.  You'll notice that the tender incorrectly sports the logo and not the words 'BRITISH RAILWAYS'.  This was insisted on by the chap even though not correct.

 

IMG_1186.JPG.973d3970b5965f2d6e0adf1c98e80e29.JPG

 

 

IMG_1196.JPG.93d928ea4821d8b9f1eecb6c2d3a8aac.JPGIMG_1180.JPG.55622772a77ee3ce39d6603546ebc325.JPG

 

The rather cruel closeup shows the lining being three colours red, grey and an extremely thin cream line, hard to see but as this is O gauge it could be noticeable if not there.  This was all lined with my bow pen as I prefer that to transfers.

 

After a lot of experimenting I settled on the Phoenix experimental BR Blue but first time round it came out a bit too bright , so I darkened it to produce the final shade.  Colour of course is a subjective thing but if he thought it was right, then it's right.  Lol..

 

Anyway good job of yours, and why not have a go at hand lining - it's very satisfying.  

 

Cheers... Alan

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, Alan Kettlewell said:

Anyway good job of yours, and why not have a go at hand lining - it's very satisfying.  

 

A wonderful Duchess; thanks for sharing! Looks especially good with the early crest which I always thought gave tenders more balance than the lettering. Will definitely have to do my research on bow pens for the next inevitable project.

 

Henry

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